• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Where?

Where did I fail?

From my relationship and others relationship with Him just like any other person.

ed: By having a relationship with the Being that is goodness itself, ie God.

ia: You haven't yet proved that God is good, only asserted it.
No, I said thru my experience with Him He has proved Himself good.

No, I said we can determine if God is good by His actions. But if you base your determination of good entirely on your own then you run into trouble because you have no objective basis for morality, it is purely on emotional preference. Only if you look to God and His moral law then you have an objective basis for morality and can lead you to the best and most fulfilling life.

ed: No, I said God commands something because it is good, and that goodness that the command is based on is His character.

ia: In other words, circular reasoning. God commands good things, and we know they are good because they were commanded by God.
That is part of it, but also once you get to know Him you recognize His goodness just like any other person. No circularity there.

No, we know He is good because we can recognize His goodness.

ia: And if you insist that your moral conscience comes from God, then you are unable to use that to measure His goodness as well, since it was provided by Him and you have not yet proved that His goodness is, well, good.
No, at that stage it is irrelevant where your moral conscience comes from. You use it everyday irrespective of where it comes from. It is the only way you can determine what is morally good or not until you learn more about morality from God Himself when you come to know Him.
 
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Got it. God is good. How do we know? Because Ed1wolf's definition of goodness is "according to the character of God."
It all fits. One beautiful line of argument, going round and round forever.
No, that is not my argument. My moral conscience shows me He is good, just like you determine if your friends are good. Not circular at all.
 
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Please tell me how you would demonstrate this objective moral standard to the Nazis. Without using circular logic, of course.
Seriously. What would you say to them?
Demonstrate the existence of the Christian God and His objectively existing moral commands based on His objectively existing moral character.
 
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
No, God's morality is based on reality because He has exhaustive knowledge about the reality that He created and incorporated His moral law into reality itself and the universe itself. Your morality is just based on your irrational sentimentality for the human species and therefore have no basis for condemning someone that does not have that sentiment like Hitler and Dahmer. And whatever someones definition of what a good life is.

ed: Many including Hitler basically got away with what they did if there is no hell.
ia: Yes. They did. So what?
That means there is no such thing as justice. Of course, I know if there is no God then there is no justice. So for atheists there is no such thing as justice.

Theoretically but extremely unlikely, most people that live lives of evil almost never do such a thing at the end of their lives. We know that Hitler committed suicide with his wife with no evidence of repentance.
 
Upvote 0

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,640
✟499,248.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Theoretically but extremely unlikely, most people that live lives of evil almost never do such a thing at the end of their lives. We know that Hitler committed suicide with his wife with no evidence of repentance.
Do we know that, really? Maybe Eva Braun just made it look like Hitler committed suicide, but really she killed him because he inexplicably felt remorse for his evil deeds, repented, and came to Christ. And that just wasn't the Adolf she fell in love with, so he had to go.
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
No, it is not a blessing, it is how the soldiers that do it will feel because of all the evil the Babylonians had done to the jews. But that does not mean that they SHOULD feel that way. It is a prediction of how they will feel.

When we were talking about the killing of Amalekite babies, you said it was the right thing to do but you would not do it gladly.

When it comes to killing Babylonian babies, you say people do it gladly, but it is not the right thing to do.

Which way is it?

I say that chasing the 2-year old daughter of an enemy soldier down the street and thrusting your sword through her heart is both wrong and something that makes the killer sad.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Your morality is just based on your irrational sentimentality for the human species and therefore have no basis for condemning someone that does not have that sentiment like Hitler and Dahmer.
Nope. Many times we have explained our basis of morality. And many times we have explained why we would condemn Hitler and Dahmer. It has nothing to do with irrational sentimentality.

But I think even you would agree that we would be wasting our time to answer you yet again, yes? You would just ignore what we say, yes? If you want to know what we actually think, read this thread.
 
Upvote 0

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
52
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟28,488.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
God calls something good if it aligns with His moral character. You were the one that was asking how do we determine whether God is good or not.


I didn't say God created the rules for morality, He built them into the universe based on His character and then revealed them to us in His word.

They could be, given if the person has a family and takes unwarranted risks when they engage in those things.

ia: What you have in fact done, again, is provide evidence in my favour. You've shown that we can look at the consequences of our actions and use these to construct a moral framework based on how human nature operates in the real world. Well done.
I never said you couldnt form a moral framework based on what you think human how human nature operates in the real world. But again people have different views on how human nature operates in the real world, so you still would not have an objective basis for your morality. it is still based on your subjective opinion of how human nature operates.

Because of who He is and also because of experience with Him.

Because an infinite being values us infinitely.

Yes, because He is the creator of this universe so He knows what is best for it and those that live in it. Just like the manufacturer of something knows what is best for what he manufactures.

Actually killing is not always bad, murder is always bad but killing is not. But my reaction would be based on my experience with Him. If my experience with him showed that He saw nothing wrong with murder then yes I would disagree with Him.

No, if His morality is based on His character then it is not arbitrary. And in fact, that is the case.

But if there is no God then there is no objective reason to care about humans at all. Your value of humans is just your personal preference and not based on anything rationally objective. The reason why obeying Gods laws produce good results in the universe is because He built His moral law into the the universe just as He built the laws of physics into the universe.

What purpose do we have and where did it come from? All you have is an imaginary purpose that comes from nothing that really exists if there is no God.
 
Upvote 0
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟102,547.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I'd like to respond, Ed, but (a) I have no time right now, (b) I have other things to do, and (c) there's nothing I need to say in response to your points that I haven't said many times before. Since all the questions you are asking have been covered before, I'm happy to simply say: see above.

Take care!
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Upvote 0

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
52
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟28,488.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Many have gotten sick with COVID. They prayed. Then they died. Where was God?

Prayer is not a cosmic vending machine. That is not how prayer works.

People die.
Everyone is pretty much condemned to death.
God doesn't owe us life.
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Prayer is not a cosmic vending machine. That is not how prayer works.
Ah, so James was mistaken:

James 5:15
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.​
People die.

Everyone is pretty much condemned to death.
True.

When we mention that half a million Americans have died of COVID, we are not saying that otherwise they would have lived forever. We are mentioning that their lives were cut short through a painful death experience.

God doesn't owe us life.
But does he care? If a person is dying of COVID, and God could heal him, and God cares, why doesn't he step in?
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Why does anyone deserve a miracle? Hint: No one does.
Ah, so millions die of COVID, because they don't deserve a better life?

If the patients don't deserve a better life, should we have Trump tell the doctors to stand back and stand by?
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Has anyone mentioned the Doctrine of Providence yet?

What is divine providence? - Printer Friendly
Yes, the topic came up. We started discussing children that were being molested. The question is whether these acts of molestation were part of God's providence, and whether God was deliberately allowing it for good. I would say no. If there is a good God who allows molestation, then surely he is not doing it because he knows it is for the child's good.
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
God calls something good if it aligns with His moral character.
In other words, might makes right. God is in charge, so do whatever he says.

If you lived in a completely different universe, with a completely different God, would his might also make him right? And if you say it depends how you feel about that God, then you have shifted from "whatever God says is right" to "whatever I feel is good is right". Which way is it?

I prefer using reason to determine what is right.

Actually killing is not always bad, murder is always bad but killing is not.
OK, and what acts of killing are murder, and what acts of killing are justified, such as for self defense?

Determining if something counts as legitimate self defense is, uh, er, subjective. Different countries have different laws, and even different states disagree on what counts as justifiable self defense. How do we tell the difference? All modern nations use the method I recommend. That is, they use reason. They talk through the various means of defining justifiable killing, and work out a system of laws that is as fair as possible. How would you do it?

But if there is no God then there is no objective reason to care about humans at all.
Once again, sigh, the same answer I have told you dozens of times but you ignore. We need trusting relationships with others, because that is the only way for humans to live any kind of a good life.

And if you think you are clever and ask us why we don't all just kill ourselves, I will respond the same way I responded every time you have asked me why I don't commit suicide.
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
No, it is not a blessing, it is how the soldiers that do it will feel because of all the evil the Babylonians had done to the jews. But that does not mean that they SHOULD feel that way. It is a prediction of how they will feel.
I see.

And all those other Psalms that wish harm on people, are they just saying this is something people think but shouldn't? For instance:

Psalms 109:6-14
And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.
Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.​

See Imprecatory Psalms - Wikipedia .
 
Upvote 0

Paulomycin

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,482
376
52
Beaumont/Port Arthur
✟28,488.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Followup RE:
Some possible questions that might or might not (lol, I dunno) come up as a result of this:

Q: Are evil acts, such as violence or sexual assault, part of Divine Providence?

A: The Doctrine of Divine providence is summarized as follows: “God in eternity past, in the counsel of His own will, ordained everything that will happen; yet in no sense is God the author of sin; nor is human responsibility removed.” The primary means by which God accomplishes His will is through secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature and human choice). In other words, God usually works indirectly to accomplish His will. <--Ultimately so, meaning that all sin will be rightly judged, and God will use all sin to accomplish His purposes.

Q: As above, would God be deliberately using it for good? If there is a good God who allows say, child molestation, then surely he is not doing it because he knows it is for the child's good, correct?

A: Correct. God is not the author of sin, yet allows sin to continue another day, because His final judgment is being suspended for another day. One cannot assume this form of God's grace will last forever. In fact, God's word says that not only is God's wrath being "piled up" because of continuing sin (Romans 2:5), but God will ultimately judge all sin and unrighteousness eternally in Hell.

And yet no one on Earth is ever entitled to be totally free from the primary or secondary effects of man's sin.

Q: Do millions die of COVID because they don't deserve a better life?

A: No one, including COVID patients, deserve life. . .period. No one is entitled to one more day on this Earth. As stated above, God's Common Grace to all mankind is temporary. "Grace" by defintion, is un-merited. The problem with mankind is his own prideful sense of self-entitlement.

Q: Was James mistaken about how prayer works?

James 5:15
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

A: Keyword is "of faith." And faith simply means "trust." It's not mysticism, nor some Kierkegaardian "leap" into the irrational. Whatever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23b).

James also writes (in the same book), "You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures." -James 4:3

Thus, prayer is not an attempt to control God. It's not even a guarantee, as one might prefer to read-into that verse. Prayer is not a cosmic vending machine. Prayer is not casting a magic spell. It is petitioning a King and trusting in that Sovereign Lord for His final decision on the matter.

To address this issue even further, the following is an excerpt from The MacArthur New Testament Commentary on James 5.

 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.