• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟102,547.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
You are right, correct interpretation is to use clear verses to interpret the less clear. Other verses show He meant they were both one in purpose and essence.
Which ones?
Look at the Bible. It's quite clear when you read about Jesus that he was just a man who was inspired by God and who loved God. He acts, in the Bible, exactly like any other prophet, such as Noah, Isaiah or Moses. He prays to God, he talks to God, he receives gifts from God.
God never gave a human omniscience.
And we haven't seen Jesus demonstrate omniscience either. God could certainly grant knowledge to his favoured humans, however, just as we see happening with Jesus.
So: Christ knew that he was going to be killed by crucifixion. And you think his distress was caused by his being "separated from God" rather than having nails driven through his hands and feet and left to die one of the most agonising deaths possible?
Again, all you have is an empty claim. It seems perfectly reasonable that a person, facing death by torture, would be distressed.
 
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single

They are atheistic in that they do not recognize the existence of any personal god. Some fascists' regimes like Nazi Germany recognized an impersonal pantheistic god but generally they do not. And they certainly do not recognize any moral code from a god, their moral code comes from humans.

Confucianism combined with their extremely homogeneous population has helped them to restrain their behavior. However, because of that they persecute religious people who dont go along their government philosophy and culture, such as serious Christians and Muslims. But their nation is a human right hell hole. Very little freedom at all. Plus using humans like they are material commodities. Plus their government has no moral standards at all.

ia: Your third sentence - "most humans are naturally religious" - wait, I thought it was only Christianity that had the power to inspire people to the level of ethical behaviour you claim.
No, because all humans are created in the image of the Christian God, when they make up their own religions they have some good qualities because of this inherent image.

ia: You have nothing. You want to say that atheists are evil people because they have no God, but the evidence is all against you. Obviously, they aren't.
No, I said depending on where the atheist was raised they can be evil and generally atheist leaders are evil. But not the ordinary atheist citizen. But over time since there is no moral anchor in God then an atheistic society goes down a slippery slope toward tyranny.

Hardly. Europe has started banning public speech criticizing homosexuality and Islam among other things. So they are plainly losing free speech.


By humanist I mean where their politics and morals come from, other humans. Communists get their ideas from Marx. Fascists get theirs from their leaders. This is as opposed to theists whose politics and morals come from God or gods.


India and Japan were influenced by Christianity and Christian principles that is why they are not. I still stand by China being a high tech hellhole with little or no freedom or basic human rights.


Materially maybe but not in the area of human rights. Even blacks though segregated had thousands of their own businesses and made quite good money. They also had religious freedom and free speech neither of which China has today. They also could have as many children as they wanted while in China up until recently could only have one child.

Given that Communists lie by definition we have no idea what the infection and death rates are in China.

He has done none of those things since becoming president.

God being the essence good itself is not circular at all. As an atheist good and evil do not even exist in any real sense.

Plenty of whites were killed by war and mass slaughters committed by Indians. What innocents? Native Americans were far from innocents. Not only did they slaughter each other for thousands of years before the colonists arrived they also slaughtered many colonists. One isolated case of a rogue military officer giving small pox infected blankets to Indians is terrible but is practicially negligible compared the unintentional spreading of diseases.

ia: Look, I'm not saying the USA is not a great country, or that all of its sins are inexcusable. But you're trying to claim that the USA is an exemplar of morality, and it simply isn't, any more than any other flawed human country.
While it has had its periods of bad behavior, overall it is an exemplar of morality. Americans give more to charity than any other nation and more people have been given freedom and rescued from oppression and death by America than any other nation.

I doubt it, though we probably would have gotten in late and therefore the war would have been much tougher and longer.

ia: The wars against Communism were precisely that - wars against Communism, out of fear that Russia would grow too powerful. Freeing oppressed peoples was always a side benefit.
Wars against Communism are wars to free the oppressed by definition.

ia: And in recent times, the USA has destabilised entire regions with unending and pointless wars.
Thousands of Muslim terrorists have been killed never to kill again. And evil dictators killed. Bush failed to understand that generally Muslim nations dont have the principles that can sustain a democracy. So he should have put benevolent dictators in their place.

Absurd, the so called cages had large screen TVs and video games and the children could play soccer outside pretty much anytime they wanted to. And if they didnt put them in these cages they would have to have let them go to wander the nation and be exposed to pedophiles and sex traffickers or otherwise they would have to have been in prison with their parents.

Yes, they have been one of the most transparent Administrations in recent American history. Much more so than the Obama administration. The stock market has been at very high levels even during the pandemic.

Experts predicted initially that America would suffer 2 million deaths, but Trump by closing down travel from China and Europe saved thousands of lives possibly millions. Only having around 200,000 deaths after 7 months is actually quite remarkable for a nation as large and diverse as we are and that values freedom so much.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟102,547.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
We've been over this before. The fact that a person or a government does not believe in God tells you nothing at all about their moral code. They may be good, evil, or anywhere in between, just as a theist may.
It's obvious you know nothing of China other than what you've heard on right-wing radio. Why not take a tip from someone who actually lives here?
Yes, China has problems. Yes, some of those are human rights problems. Yes, its governments hands are far from clean. But this does not, by any stretch of the imagination, make it a hell hole.
No, because all humans are created in the image of the Christian God, when they make up their own religions they have some good qualities because of this inherent image.
Oh. Another unsubstantiated claim. You make things up an awful lot, do you know that?
Nonsense. One quick search proves that wrong:
7 World Leaders Prove That America Can Have an Atheist President Too
Hardly. Europe has started banning public speech criticizing homosexuality and Islam among other things. So they are plainly losing free speech.
This is just ridiculous oversimplification and misunderstanding.
By humanist I mean where their politics and morals come from, other humans. Communists get their ideas from Marx. Fascists get theirs from their leaders. This is as opposed to theists whose politics and morals come from God or gods.
Do you? Well, stop it, please. Humanism has a very specific meaning:
Definition of humanist | Dictionary.com
"a person having a strong interest in or concern for human welfare, values, and dignity."
Please use the actual definition, rather than making them up to suit yourself.
India and Japan were influenced by Christianity and Christian principles that is why they are not. I still stand by China being a high tech hellhole with little or no freedom or basic human rights.
Well, come and live here and you'll see you're wrong.
"Made quite good money," eh? How lucky for them.
By the way, ever hear of the American eugenics program?
Look. I'm not saying that America is a hellhole. Of course, it isn't. In many ways, America is a model of liberalism and democratic ideals, or at least the best this world has to offer. Having said that, it would be silly to ignore the huge mistakes America has made, its history of genocide, racism, class discrimination, warmongering and other evils. So if you're holding up America as a perfect society and China as a hellhole, you're quite simply wrong.
Given that Communists lie by definition we have no idea what the infection and death rates are in China.
Who told you Communists lie by definition? Of course they don't. And while the government of China may not be the most trustworthy source ever, I'd say it's a veritable fountain of truth compared to the current incumbent of the White House.
As far as the coronavirus goes, the Chinese government has been at least reasonably competent. Measures were taken to stop the spread of the virus, and they were effective. Again: take it from someone who lives here.
He has done none of those things since becoming president.
First of all, is that an admission that Donald Trump was all of those things before becoming the President? In which case, that's very nearly as bad.
However, since becoming President:
Con man? Check - see the Woodward tapes for confessions in his own voice as to how he misled the American people.
Grifter? Check. See the many times he has been scamming the American taxpayers - nepotism, emoluments, etc. etc.
Thief? Probably comes under the two above.
Sexual assaulter? Possibly not, during his time in office, but I wouldn't be surprised.
And let's add manslaughter to that, through negligence and wilful neglect. He knew the coronavirus was a terrible disease, and he just didn't care. All he focused on was the short-term damage if people thought there was a disease on the loose, and so he lied, and lied, and lied, and people died.
God being the essence good itself is not circular at all. As an atheist good and evil do not even exist in any real sense.
It's a perfect example of circular logic. I think it's terribly funny how you keep saying I can't tell the difference between good and evil, when the truth is, you're far more vulnerable to the charge yourself.
Ah. So two wrongs make a right, do they? Is this Christian morality? "They did it as well, so it wasn't bad" is it? You're doing a great job at painting America as being a morally superior nation.
While it has had its periods of bad behavior, overall it is an exemplar of morality. Americans give more to charity than any other nation and more people have been given freedom and rescued from oppression and death by America than any other nation.
I'm glad to hear you admit that America has had periods of bad behaviour. But if you think you can just brush centuries (up to and including the present day) of systemic racism under the carpet, you're quite mistaken.
I doubt it, though we probably would have gotten in late and therefore the war would have been much tougher and longer.
Again: the US entered the war because they were attacked. Hardly the most high-minded of moral principles.
Wars against Communism are wars to free the oppressed by definition.
Of course they're not. It's quite possible to enter a war against a morally reprehensible power for reasons other than helping their subject peoples.
I think I've indulged your simplistic political ideas for long enough at this point.
Yuck. How horrible.
The horrifying conditions facing kids in border detention, explained
"At any given time, for the past several weeks, more than 2,000 children have been held in the custody of US Border Patrol without their parents. Legally, they’re not supposed to be held by border agents for more than 72 hours before being sent to the Department of Health and Human Services, which is responsible for finding their nearest relative in the US to house them while their immigration cases are adjudicated.
In practice, they’re being held for days, sometimes weeks, in facilities without enough food or toothbrushes — going days without showering, overcrowded and undercared for."
Yes, they have been one of the most transparent Administrations in recent American history. Much more so than the Obama administration. The stock market has been at very high levels even during the pandemic.
Oh dear...
The Trump Administration has not been one of the most transparent administrations in recent history. It's been one of the most porous. In other words, its composed almost solely of lying liars, but this is counterbalanced by the incredible amount of leaking that goes on.
Here's a tip - don't believe everything Donald Trump says. Hate to break it to you, but it's not always true.
Donald Trump closing down travel from China and Europe was largely ineffective. And no, 200, 000 + deaths is not remarkable, it's catastrophic. Take a look at how other nations around the world are doing. Plenty of them have implemented sensible precautions - masks, tracing, restricting travel - and as a result the coronavirus has been contained. In America, it is rampant. You have politicians, including the President himself, who have spent months telling the American people to go out, go to school, go to parties and shopping and not wear masks.
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟532,270.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
T Communists get their ideas from Marx. Fascists get theirs from their leaders. This is as opposed to theists whose politics and morals come from God or gods.
How do you know that Moses and Jeremiah got their morals from God? Because they told you so? There were a lot of people claiming to be getting their morals from God. Do you agree with all their morals? If not, why do you trust Moses and Jeremiah, but not some of the others?

Your responses to this question have been weak. You have claimed historical accuracy for the Bible. So what? Lots of books have accurate history. If I find a book with accurate history, can I know that this book has infallible morals?

And sadly, the Bible is often far from historical.

You have also tried to claim that, since science advanced in countries with a Christian background, therefore the Bible has infallible morals. Science developed mostly during the daytime. Does this prove that sunlight is holy? Science developed mostly in the northern hemisphere. Does this prove the North Pole is infallible? Early science was developed predominantly by males. Does this mean that males have perfect morals? Those are the kinds of conclusions one would reach if he used the logic, "Science developed in situation X, therefore situation X is infallible."

What about the commands in the Bible that are not good? Luke 6:30 says to give to every man that asks of you. Do you think this command is infallible? Or is it OK to let common sense limit the application of this verse?
 
Reactions: cvanwey
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
He has already endorsed forcing Christians to bake cakes with messages that go against their religious beliefs and forcing Christians to provide abortions for their employees. Where has Trump said he wants to eliminate our First Amendment rights?

ia: And I doubt Joe Biden will reduce Second Amendment rights as much as they need to be reduced.
He has already said he wants Beto O Rourke on his cabinet who has said blatantly he wants to confiscated Americans guns that are used for self defense.

No, I demonstrated that it recognizes a higher law, the laws of Nature and the law of Natures God as stated in DOI. Even MLK recognized this, read his Letter from a Birmingham Jail. He states that without Gods law we cannot judge mans law.
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟532,270.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I think perhaps that you should be more careful what you post on the Internet. Otherwise, some people might read this, and think that you want the deranged man in the White House to stay.

I think you mischaracterize Biden's LGBTQ policy and gun policy.

But even if you disagree with Biden's policies, how can that be more important than the continued existence of America? Trump has taken America from the dominant player in the international community to a source of derision. His abandonment of the Iran agreement and the climate agreement have caused immense harm. His downplaying of NATO puts us all at risk. Other countries have lost so much faith in us that they no longer line up to buy U S debt. Now, the number one means of financing our debt is by literally printing the money. This can not go on. If other countries abandon the dollar, abandon our alliances, and go out on their own without us, I fear for America.

When he got elected once, people shook their heads in sorrow. "Wow! That was odd." But if it happens again who would possibly want to trust us?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
There are no creatures with a partially developed notochord. Why is that? No transitional pre-notochords. A transitional between a notochord and a backbone would be non functional and the organism would not survive.

There may be an intermediate mode of locomotion but that is not a key feature of humans. But the key anatomical feature of hominids is the brain. Australopithicus brain is the same size as chimpanzees, then there is a huge gap up to the early human homo erectus (which is really just a race of homo sapiens because there is evidence of interbreeding) which is already in the normal size range for homo sapiens.

Not if they occupy the same ecological niche. The more advanced form replaces the primitive form, but that didnt happen here. Organisms that are directly ancestral occupy the same ecological niche that is how evolution progresses.
 
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
But that is africanus, the so-called human line goes thru afarensis. So the wrong one has the so-called human like brain in your article. And their brain size is in the chimp range not human. A 2007 paper in the Proceedings of National Academy of Sciences, states that the "gorilla like anatomy of afarensis mandibles casts doubt on its role as a modern human ancestor." So for both species the evidence shows they are unlikely to be human ancestors.
 
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
There is no assumption other than human beings are subjects, and can therefore have subjective experiences.
No, how come you dont treat other animals equal to humans? Aren't you guilty of speciesism if you dont treat them the same as humans or treat humans the same as animals? There is no real reason to treat humans as valuable or special. Again this is irrational if atheistic evolution is true.
 
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Showing that His character is good and is recognized as such is evidence for Him being goodness itself. And being truthful is also a characteristic of goodness. Personal beings act according to their character they generally do not act against their character so it is unlikely He would command something evil.

Personal beings recognize good because they have a moral conscience. Otherwise they are not fully personal beings. Yes, I can demonstrate that the Christian God most likely exists, therefore His objective moral character exists providing us with an objective foundation for morality.

No, if ANY purposes exist in the universe then the cause of the universe must be personal. Yes, all creatures have purposes and even the structures that make up organisms have purposes, such as ears for hearing and eyes for seeing.

No, a cockroach can hide under a shoe thinking it is a rock and it will survive just as well as it if it knew the truth that it was not under a rock. You can accurately assess your surroundings and still not recognize whether something is true or not like whether 2 plus 2 is 4 or whether the earth is round or flat or whether we evolved or not. None of those things increase survivability.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,425
20,719
Orlando, Florida
✟1,506,562.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat

Do you know what a Gish Gallup is? There are so many unquestioned assumptions hidden in your statements here, I wouldn't know where to begin.
 
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟102,547.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Showing that His character is good and is recognized as such is evidence for Him being goodness itself.
Not good enough, I'm afraid. You said that you could logically prove that you had a rational foundation for an objective morality. Saying, "Hey, God has done good things and He tells us He's good" is not nearly enough. You need to have a logical proof.
And being truthful is also a characteristic of goodness.
Is it? Is it always? Can you not think of any circumstances in which it would be a moral act to lie?
Personal beings act according to their character they generally do not act against their character so it is unlikely He would command something evil.
"Generally" . "Unlikely." These show that your argument is full of holes. This isn't proof in the slightest.
More than that, you have been offered a logical problem to solve. If you say that your morality is objectively sound because it is based on God, who is goodness itself, then you have to answer the question: what does it mean to say that God is goodness itself? Without any external standard to measure it against, it means absolutely nothing.

You've been asked before, and have failed to give a satisfactory answer: why shouldn't God commit what we call evil? Why shouldn't He lie, cheat, steal, murder, or encourage others to do these things?
If God is goodness itself, and the standard by which goodness is measured, what is to stop Him from doing any of these things? You say that God would not do these things, because they would be evil. But that's the problem - if God did them, they wouldn't be evil, because He is the standard by which you measure goodness. It's moral relativity taken to its logical extreme.

You've also said that God wouldn't do these things because He has previously said that He would not. But that means absolutely nothing. All you're doing is saying that God would not be inconsistent, because that would be wrong. But if God declares that inconsistency is good, then how can you - lacking any external standard - judge God as being anything other than wrong? You say that God wouldn't change His mind, because apparently you think that's something people don't do. First of all, of course they do; people have often been known to act against what we think of as their natures. And secondly, who is to say that God has not been lying to you all this time? You can't say He wouldn't lie because lying is bad, because God is the standard against which you judge good and bad, and so if He declares lying is good, then it is.

These are the questions you have to answer, and you have to answer them with logical arguments. Saying "God would never do such a thing," or "God said He would never do such a thing," or "My moral awareness lets me know when God is being good or bad," are just inadequate answers. You need to provide a logical argument, something you have failed to do so far.
First, I very much doubt that you can demonstrate that the Christian God most likely exists. This is based on my not unextensive experience of Christian apologists, the Christian Forums website, and of you yourself.
But even if you could prove that God exists, that would in no way help you to resolve the logical problem: how can a morality based solely on God's character be proven to be objectively sound?
No, if ANY purposes exist in the universe then the cause of the universe must be personal.
Nonsense. Why would you imagine that?
Yes, all creatures have purposes and even the structures that make up organisms have purposes, such as ears for hearing and eyes for seeing.
Yes. And? Purpose is simply a consequence of life evolving. There's nothing magical about it, and certainly nothing that points to something apart from the universe existing.
You're confusing knowledge with truth here. What evolution has given us, quite naturally, is an ability to sense the world around us and react to it. In organisms like us, that have evolved the ability to think, this has given us the ability to identify truth. It's not a foolproof ability, by any means, but it does mean that we can all agree that we live in a shared reality - not that truth is whatever we decide it is. If you think that, the perhaps you'd like to decide to step out of a third-floor window so you can float down like a bubble.
 
Reactions: doubtingmerle
Upvote 0
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟102,547.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
He has already endorsed forcing Christians to bake cakes with messages that go against their religious beliefs and forcing Christians to provide abortions for their employees. Where has Trump said he wants to eliminate our First Amendment rights?
Goodness me, is that what you meant? Those tired old problems of bakers for gay weddings and support for abortion providers? Well, that raises my opinion of Joe Biden.
And are you not aware of the many times Donald Trump has threatened or violated First Amendment rights? He's done it an awful lot, you know.
He has already said he wants Beto O Rourke on his cabinet who has said blatantly he wants to confiscated Americans guns that are used for self defense.
That's nice. Good for them.
No, I demonstrated that it recognizes a higher law, the laws of Nature and the law of Natures God as stated in DOI. Even MLK recognized this, read his Letter from a Birmingham Jail. He states that without Gods law we cannot judge mans law.
What he meant was that you should judge a law to see whether it is moral or not, and that a bad law is immoral, even if it is legal. I would say the same thing except, not being a Christian, I would not talk about "God's law." But I have no doubt that Martin Luther King would agree with me a lot more than he would agree with you.
Well, exactly!
 
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
No, a being can be the essence of something, God is the essence of goodness.
 
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single

Because He says He only sends a strong delusion after a period of willful rebellion and rejection of the truth. Just like He did with the Pharoah of the Exodus. He allowed his heart to harden, ie a loss of free will, and become trapped in their own sin. From my experience with Him I learn that He is truthful and trustworthy and is not deluding me.

Yes, it is possible but as you get to know someone you learn that they are truthful and trustworthy. So it is with God.

ed: Secondly then when you have a relationship with Him your experiences with Him also confirm His truthfulness.

dm: Ah, you get a feeling that he is truthful. How does this prove anything?
I never said we could prove He is with absolute certainty but just like you learn your wife or family is truthful to you and trustworthy, so it is with your relationship with God.


True but we also have a moral conscience, that helps to see who is good and trustworthy and who is evil and not to be trusted. So it is with God, we learn about His goodness and trusttworthiness thru our relationship with Him. I never said we can know He is good with absolute certainty, that is why it involves faith, just like any personal relationship.

dm: But how would you tell if an omnipotent God was lying to you? By definition, he would be capable of doing anything.
No, even an omnipotent being cannot go against their character if they are a personal being because personal beings have a moral character by definition and in additon, they cannot go against logic and cannot do what is logically impossible.

See above about personal relationships and faith.

dm: The point is that your reliance on God as your source of morality is based on little. You have no way of knowing what God says. (And no, saying that science came from countries with a Christian background is not proof that God wrote the Bible.)
It is evidence that He is good, because of all the good that science has given to humans. If He was not good, he would have made sure that science never came into existence and especially made sure it was not invented by His followers.

See above about how we learn that someone is a good person. I am not saying we know for certain, but we know He is good as well as you know that your wife loves you.
 
Upvote 0
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟102,547.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
No, a being can be the essence of something, God is the essence of goodness.
That sounds extremely dubious. Is it possible for a person to be the essence of "something"? Of ugliness, or of mathematics, or of wisdom?
But okay - God is presented as a supernatural being. Let's grant, for now, that He can be the essence of goodness.

In that case, what does this mean?
That God only does good things? That anything God does is good? That God is the measuring stick by which we judge what is good or not? That God tells us and/or shows us what goodness means?
But in that case, how will you know what goodness is? Your standard of goodness is "What God says is good."How can you tell that what God says is good, is in fact good?

Let me ask you - if God did a bad thing, how would you know?How would you say "I have looked at this action, and it is bad or immoral," or "I know God would not do such a thing, because it would be bad or immoral, and God would never do such a thing."

Let's say God lied, or raped, or murdered. Would you say "God did a bad thing" if He did that? How could you? By definition - your definition - anything God does is good.

Would you answer that God would never do a bad thing like this? But the thing is, if He did it, it wouldn't be bad, would it? Again, by your definition.

Would you answer that God told you He would never do such a thing, so He wouldn't? And that God would never change his mind? But if He changed His mind, it would mean changing your mind is a good thing. How could you say otherwise? By what means would you judge God?

Don't you see, this is moral relativism at its logical extreme.

Because He says He only sends a strong delusion after a period of willful rebellion and rejection of the truth.
He said that, did He? You're talking about a person and saying you know this person tells you the truth because this person assured you that He doesn't lie?
Do you see the logical problem with that?
How do you know God wasn't lying when He assured you He wouldn't lie to you?

Yes, it is possible but as you get to know someone you learn that they are truthful and trustworthy. So it is with God.
Okay - you've said that it is possible that God could, in fact, be being deceptive with you. Thank you for that admission.
In that case, how would you learn that He is trustworthy?
Remember, God is a being of incredible abilities. Of course He could fool you if He wanted to.

I never said we could prove He is with absolute certainty
You said that you could prove that God was good with absolute certainty. Now it appears that you can't. Because, when presented with a logical argument showing the mistake in defining God as the essence of goodness, your response is to say that you have learned to trust Him, but that you admit you can't be certain that you are right about Him.

True but we also have a moral conscience, that helps to see who is good and trustworthy and who is evil and not to be trusted.
How do you know that your moral conscience is trustworthy? How do you know your sense of right and wrong is accurate?
Either (a) it was given to you by God, which means you are now committing the logical fallacy of begging the question, as you are attempting to use the moral sense that came from God to prove that God is good.
Or (b) your sense of right and wrong was developed naturally, in which case you are wrong about God being the foundation of morality, since you didn't need God in order to be able to tell right from wrong.

No, even an omnipotent being cannot go against their character if they are a personal being because personal beings have a moral character by definition and in additon, they cannot go against logic and cannot do what is logically impossible.
Who asked God to do anything logically impossible? that's a strawman argument.

And people act out of character all the time. Nothing strange about that.
Also, as I said earlier, maybe God is pretending to have a good character; maybe He's been deceptive all along.

It is evidence that He is good, because of all the good that science has given to humans. If He was not good, he would have made sure that science never came into existence and especially made sure it was not invented by His followers.
None of that makes sense in the slightest. What about all the bad that has come about through science - the pollution, the wars and weapons, the dangers and difficulties? And are you saying that God can override people's free will and so prevent them from doing certain things, like creating inventions?

The existence of Science is not proof of anything - not that God is good, not that God is truthful, and certainly not that God exists.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟532,270.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Ed1wolf, you keep writing about evolution, but you still haven't told us your alternative. You appear to reject both evolution and young earth creation. OK. How do you think it happened? Can you give us an alternative that you think is more likely than evolution?

But that is africanus, the so-called human line goes thru afarensis. So the wrong one has the so-called human like brain in your article.

Uh, most likely neither was our direct ancestor. Evolution branched in many directions. There are at least 7 known species that are classed in the genus australopitchicus, including the two you mentioned. There may have been many others. One of those species was probably our ancestor. Or maybe the direct line came through a cousin of the Australopithicus. We don't know.

The point is that there is fossil evidence in the Australopithicus genus that some had a brain structured in a way that is characteristic of humans. This could indicate that many of the cousin species of the two you mentioned also had this feature.

That is an intermediate feature. Among creatures several million years ago, there were creatures that were partly equipped for upright walking, and had a brain feature characteristic of humans.

And their brain size is in the chimp range not human.
Of course not. Can you imagine if a small ape gave birth to a child with a brain in the human range. Pity that poor mother!

But as I describe in the opening post at the thread we discussed, there were a number of steps that led up to the point where it was possible to have larger brains. One of those steps was likely the organization of the brain in such a way that creatures relied more heavily on cognition. This led to social support and advances that allowed future generations to get the adaption of prolonged brain growth after birth.

After the process got started, there were incremental increases in brain size.

 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟532,270.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Ed1wolf, I see you still have not come up with an alternative to evolution. You appear to deny both evolution and young earth creation. What do you believe? Please give me a view that fits the available data better than evolution.

There are no creatures with a partially developed notochord. Why is that? No transitional pre-notochords. A transitional between a notochord and a backbone would be non functional and the organism would not survive.
You said you wanted a transitional. I gave you one, a simple creature with a notochord. Now what? You want one with half a notochord. And if I showed you that you would want one with 25% of a notochord and 75%.

That simply is not what we would expect to find. The fossil record is limited. But what we find is consistent with evolution.

Is it consistent with your view? Nobody will ever know, because you will not tell us your view.

Not if they occupy the same ecological niche. The more advanced form replaces the primitive form, but that didnt happen here. Organisms that are directly ancestral occupy the same ecological niche that is how evolution progresses.

Its a big planet. There are plenty of ecological niches out there. Speciation occurs regularly, with the parent species and the new species both surviving.
 
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
No, God cannot deceive anyone unless they have already chosen to turn away from the truth of their own free will. Deceiving people goes against His moral character and He cannot do that.

No, just like any personal relationship you can learn by experience whether the person is good and trustworthy and that has been the case in my relationship with God and all Christians who trust God.

No, mine and the best Christian arguments for the existence of the Christian God are based on science and logic.
 
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
No, I said only Christians have a rationally objective moral standard. We know God is good from our experience with Him, just like any other relationship.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.