Where will conservatives go if they leave the UMC in a few years?

circuitrider · Aug 31, 2017

It will depend on the part of the country you are in I think. We have ELCA, UCC and PCUSA churches in this town. But I pastor the largest mainline church in town.

My own congregation (by estimates I have from longer term members) is about 30-40% for allowing same sex marriage about 10-20% solidly against, and about 40% who haven't made up their minds or don't care that much.

So by my best estimate my guess is that the progressives would win a congregational vote and I'd lose at least 10-20% of the congregation. That's not something any pastor would be happy about, no matter what side of the issue you are on.

Anto9us · Sep 1, 2017

The suggestions that the liberal Methodists should leave -- in light of numbers/percentages given in the last several posts -- is getting things backwards, imo.

And of course is the reverse of the OP -- which asks where will conservatives go...

If UMC is that huge of a denomination, and Circuitrider's church's percentages of liberal-conservative-moderate is ANYWHERE CLOSE to "the norm" -- then "waiting it out" without a split seems logical -- and conservatives that concerned about it can split off or go elsewhere as the OP originally presented.

circuitrider · Sep 4, 2017

Anto9us said:
The suggestions that the liberal Methodists should leave -- in light of numbers/percentages given in the last several posts -- is getting things backwards, imo.

And of course is the reverse of the OP -- which asks where will conservatives go...

If UMC is that huge of a denomination, and Circuitrider's church's percentages of liberal-conservative-moderate is ANYWHERE CLOSE to "the norm" -- then "waiting it out" without a split seems logical -- and conservatives that concerned about it can split off or go elsewhere as the OP originally presented.

I would guess that a good 50% of United Methodists fit the broad middle, neither far left or far right. The middle wants United Methodists to stay together. We would be far better off to find a way to allow pastors and churches to follow their own consciences on sexuality than to split. Many on the far left and right are ready for a split. But that doesn’t mean that really is what should happen.

Some Methodists in the middle hope to find a way to avoid a split. It may not be possible. But Christianity doesn’t need yet one more denomination of narrowly defined Christianity.

Anto9us · Sep 5, 2017

Right now the moderateness of UMC is to me a good thing

and the Open Table communion

Baby Cottontail · Sep 17, 2017

Basil the Great said:
I tend to think that a split is coming within a few years, but I could well be wrong. It might just be that if the UMC changes it's policy on sexual mores to become like the Episcopal Church, the United Church of Christ, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Presbyterian Church (USA), maybe a denominational split can be avoided. However, even if a split fails to happen, a policy change could well result in perhaps hundreds of thousands of conservative United Methodists waking out the doors and trying other denominations. It is hard to say where most would go. What do you think?

If there is a split (and I don't see how it can be avoided forever), I hope theology about essential issues is addressed.

There are UMC pastors who do not even believe in Jesus, in the trinity, in personal sin, in the second coming, in substitutionary atonement, or in Jesus' bodily resurrection. Some of them even promote paganism and occult spirituality within their churches.

To me, these are far more serious issues than homosexuality. (I personally believe that homosexual behavior is sin). However, the above list are foundational Christian doctrines. If we are not all in agreement on those, I don't see how the UMC can stay united. There will come a point in which there will need to be a split over those issues, if not over homosexuality.

If a split happens, I would examine the resulting groups, and I would also examine the other churches in my community. I would attend the church whose theology I agreed with the most.

circuitrider · Sep 17, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
If there is a split (and I don't see how it can be avoided forever), I hope theology about essential issues is addressed.

There are UMC pastors who do not even believe in Jesus, in the trinity, in personal sin, in the second coming, in substitutionary atonement, or in Jesus' bodily resurrection. Some of them even promote paganism and occult spirituality within their churches.

To me, these are far more serious issues than homosexuality. (I personally believe that homosexual behavior is sin). However, the above list are foundational Christian doctrines. If we are not all in agreement on those, I don't see how the UMC can stay united. There will come a point in which there will need to be a split over those issues, if not over homosexuality.

If a split happens, I would examine the resulting groups, and I would also examine the other churches in my community. I would attend the church whose theology I agreed with the most.

I hate to tell you this. But a belief in substitutionary atonement is not a requirement of United Methodist doctrine. There are multiple theories of how the atonement functions in the Bible and substitution is just one of them.

As to the occult, what occult viewpoints are you suggesting have come into the church. You lost me there.

Baby Cottontail · Sep 17, 2017

circuitrider said:
I hate to tell you this. But a belief in substitutionary atonement is not a requirement of United Methodist doctrine. There are multiple theories of how the atonement functions in the Bible and substitution is just one of them.

As to the occult, what occult viewpoints are you suggesting have come into the church. You lost me there.

True -- it isn't required to be a United Methodist. However, I do feel like if someone doesn't believe in it at all that they might have different views of salvation. I could see someone holding that view and believe other theories of atonement as well.

I am wondering, though, if I belong in the United Methodist denomination at all. I do hold to substitutionary atonement quite strongly, and if the denominational ever denies it officially, I will leave. I feel like that would be an irreconcilable difference.

Some of the occult viewpoints that I am referring to include shamanism, wicca, New Age spirituality, and New Thought spirituality (including Unity Church and the promotion of John Shelby Spong's spirituality). At the other end of the spectrum, theology from the New Apostolic Reformation and Bill Johnson's church in Redding California are getting into some churches.

circuitrider · Sep 18, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
T
I am wondering, though, if I belong in the United Methodist denomination at all. I do hold to substitutionary atonement quite strongly, and if the denominational ever denies it officially, I will leave. I feel like that would be an irreconcilable difference.

Some of the occult viewpoints that I am referring to include shamanism, wicca, New Age spirituality, and New Thought spirituality (including Unity Church and the promotion of John Shelby Spong's spirituality). At the other end of the spectrum, theology from the New Apostolic Reformation and Bill Johnson's church in Redding California are getting into some churches.

Substitutionary atonement is certainly a view held by some United Methodists but United Methodism isn't big on adopting extra-Biblical theories and then telling people they have to follow them. Theories of atonement are just ways people try to describe what the Bible says about salvation. The UMC has never adopted an official theory on how God does what God does. In the same way the UMC never says exactly how the second coming will happen though some denominations insist on adopting some theory and then requiring their members to believe that theory, even though specific theories aren't found in the Bible.

I'd be a lot more concerned about if people believe in salvation or not than if they have some theory about how Jesus redeems us. We aren't Christians because we believe in Substitution, or Adoption or Christus Victor, etc.

I've never ever seen Wicca in a UM church. I've known a church member or two who are into Unity but never a pastor. Lay people often believe all kinds of things that are not official doctrines of the Church. that isn't the UMC's fault. We can't control people like that.

Baby Cottontail · Sep 18, 2017

circuitrider said:
Substitutionary atonement is certainly a view held by some United Methodists but United Methodism isn't big on adopting extra-Biblical theories and then telling people they have to follow them. Theories of atonement are just ways people try to describe what the Bible says about salvation. The UMC has never adopted an official theory on how God does what God does. In the same way the UMC never says exactly how the second coming will happen though some denominations insist on adopting some theory and then requiring their members to believe that theory, even though specific theories aren't found in the Bible.

I'd be a lot more concerned about if people believe in salvation or not than if they have some theory about how Jesus redeems us. We aren't Christians because we believe in Substitution, or Adoption or Christus Victor, etc.

I've never ever seen Wicca in a UM church. I've known a church member or two who are into Unity but never a pastor. Lay people often believe all kinds of things that are not official doctrines of the Church. that isn't the UMC's fault. We can't control people like that.

I attended a UMC seminary to study counseling, and I got to know some of the students who were becoming pastors. What I described was what some of the professors and fellow students who wanted to be pastors believed or taught. The shamanism thing was presented by the bishop in residence during orientation at the seminary, and professors encouraged students to see this spiritual director who used shamanism to put people in touch with their animal spirits. The other spiritual director at that center was New Age. Yet, none of the professors or the bishop had a problem with this kind of spirituality.

I know it isn't the UMC's fault, but they are allowing non-Christian things into their seminaries, and they don't seem to mind if some of their pastors and bishops believe things that are not Christian.

I know there are people in the UMC who do believe as well. I'm just frustrated by some of the things that I have witnessed in the UMC.

As for Unity Church -- again, the bishop teaches Spong's spirituality (which is really New Thought) in her spirituality classes. There were several students who attended Unity Churches that were in the area.

I do think that some of the atonement theories are complimentary, but I do have an issue when someone completely does not believe in substitution. Maybe that's just my understanding of Christianity, and like I said, maybe I would be happier in a different denomination.

As to how the Second Coming will happen -- I agree with you. To me, how it happens exactly does not matter, and I wouldn't want to join a church that forced me to believe in pre-tribulation or something.

circuitrider · Sep 19, 2017

I can’t speak to what people I don’t know believe or don’t believe. But while UM seminaries educated UM clergy, you have to get a Board of Ordained Ministry to approve you to be ordained.

We have a broad Church but there are most certainly people who seek ordination that are turned down by the board because their doctrine is not compatible with the Church.

Baby Cottontail · Sep 19, 2017

circuitrider said:
I can’t speak to what people I don’t know believe or don’t believe. But while UM seminaries educated UM clergy, you have to get a Board of Ordained Ministry to approve you to be ordained.

We have a broad Church but there are most certainly people who seek ordination that are turned down by the board because their doctrine is not compatible with the Church.

Yes, I am aware of that. It is encouraging But, unfortunately, some people lie. There was actually some discussion about this among some of the ministry students on how best to lie about their beliefs so that they could pass.

That being said, I think that the denomination is trying to do its best to weed out people who don't believe. It's just that some people will slip through, but hopefully most of them are caught.

circuitrider · Sep 19, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
Yes, I am aware of that. It is encouraging But, unfortunately, some people lie. There was actually some discussion about this among some of the ministry students on how best to lie about their beliefs so that they could pass.

That being said, I think that the denomination is trying to do its best to weed out people who don't believe. It's just that some people will slip through, but hopefully most of them are caught.

I sit on the Board of Ordained Ministry, it is actually pretty hard to lie to the board. We examine your preaching, theology, worship leadership, pastoral gifts, personal spiritual life, etc. You have to have background checks and a psychological evaluation. You have to meet with multiple committees. Submit videos of recent sermons, etc. etc.

If you are going to lie to us you have to be really really consistent in that lie so that no one, including all the people who recommend you, evaluate you, supervise you, and know you won’t know you are lying.

Seminarians who think they are going to trick the board are likely to get a very rude awakening.

Baby Cottontail · Sep 20, 2017

circuitrider said:
I sit on the Board of Ordained Ministry, it is actually pretty hard to lie to the board. We examine your preaching, theology, worship leadership, pastoral gifts, personal spiritual life, etc. You have to have background checks and a psychological evaluation. You have to meet with multiple committees. Submit videos of recent sermons, etc. etc.

If you are going to lie to us you have to be really really consistent in that lie so that no one, including all the people who recommend you, evaluate you, supervise you, and know you won’t know you are lying.

Seminaries who think they are going to trick the board are likely to get a very rude awakening.

Good to know. Thank you. I hope that you are able to catch all of the ones that want to lie

That does make me feel a lot better.

circuitrider · Sep 20, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
Good to know. Thank you. I hope that you are able to catch all of the ones that want to lie

That does make me feel a lot better.

United Methodists have a very broad theology. But we have one of the strictest ordination systems I know of.

Dave-W · Sep 20, 2017

circuitrider said:
But we have one of the strictest ordination systems I know of.

You should see the UMJC's requirements.

raschau · Oct 30, 2017

One must bear in mind that the mainline Methodist church and those which came out of the Holiness Movement such as the Nazarenes, Free Methodists, Wesleyan Church, etc. have fairly divergent views of Scripture and tradition, styles of worship, and so on that have been in place since the 1800s.

Despite the fact that there are dozens, or several dozens, of existing Wesleyan denominations, certainly another one will pop up for disaffected United Methodists, perhaps under the auspices of the Wesleyan Covenant Association, that will continue the UM way of seeing and doing things.

circuitrider · Oct 30, 2017

raschau said:
One must bear in mind that the mainline Methodist church and those which came out of the Holiness Movement such as the Nazarenes, Free Methodists, Wesleyan Church, etc. have fairly divergent views of Scripture and tradition, styles of worship, and so on that have been in place since the 1800s.

Despite the fact that there are dozens, or several dozens, of existing Wesleyan denominations, certainly another one will pop up for disaffected United Methodists, perhaps under the auspices of the Wesleyan Covenant Association, that will continue the UM way of seeing and doing things.

It appears that the view of the WCA and RMN (right and left) only represent 20-30% of the denomination. Recent stats suggest that 70-80% of United Methodists don’t actually want a split.

Unfortunately the far left and far right are just loud. But the average person in the pew isn’t that interested in splitting their church that they love, grew up in and support.

Yes, Methodists have split over single issues at times. But other times on other issues (abortion, women in ministry, etc.) we choose to stay together. Will we split? Possibly. But if we do what I expect, unless the General Conference can create an organized division, is that 10% on each side or so will split off leaving the current denomination smaller but still keeping 70-80% of the UMC together.

actionsub · Oct 30, 2017

circuitrider said:
It appears that the view of the WCA and RMN (right and left) only represent 20-30% of the denomination. Recent stats suggest that 70-80% of United Methodists don’t actually want a split.

Unfortunately the far left and far right are just loud. But the average person in the pew isn’t that interested in splitting their church that they love, grew up in and support.

Yes, Methodists have split over single issues at times. But other times on other issues (abortion, women in ministry, etc.) we choose to stay together. Will we split? Possibly. But if we do what I expect, unless the General Conference can create an organized division, is that 10% on each side or so will split off leaving the current denomination smaller but still keeping 70-80% of the UMC together.

And that's been the pattern through the majority of Methodist history, as in the formation of the Free Methodists and the ME South Church during the Civil War. Granted, the latter came back into the fold.

St Antony · Nov 29, 2017

The conservatives in the UMC would be well advised to turn to the Roman Catholic Church as an alternative. Over Thanksgiving, I was thumbing through the first pages of a UMC hymnal at a friend's house and it's uncanny how similar the ritual and creed are between the UMC and RCC. I guess that stems from the UMC being part of the Anglican split with the RCC during the Reformation.

actionsub · Nov 29, 2017

St Antony said:
The conservatives in the UMC would be well advised to turn to the Roman Catholic Church as an alternative. Over Thanksgiving, I was thumbing through the first pages of a UMC hymnal at a friend's house and it's uncanny how similar the ritual and creed are between the UMC and RCC. I guess that stems from the UMC being part of the Anglican split with the RCC during the Reformation.

There is a lot of carryover from Orthodoxy/Catholicism into the Methodist rituals due to the Church of England. That said, you might not get a lot of buy-in from evangelical Methodists for Marian devotion, or the fact that some (like me) are divorced and remarried and could not commune in the RC church.

Where will conservatives go if they leave the UMC in a few years?

If the UMC reverses it's policy, but fails to split, where will conservatives go that leave?

(1) a Baptist Church

(2) a conservative Presbyterian denomination

(3) Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod

(4) Church of the Nazarene

(5) Disciples of Christ

(6) other Protestant bodies

(7) Catholic or Eastern Orthodox

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