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Where to draw the line on social issues?

MichelleNoel

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I am struggling with how I would answer if asked about whether I want a law against social issues such as abortion. As an LCMS member, I am anti-abortion, but wonder if I have the right to demand by law that others do as I do.

What are you thoughts on the legalization of Christian beliefs on social issues?
 

MarkRohfrietsch

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I am struggling with how I would answer if asked about whether I want a law against social issues such as abortion. As an LCMS member, I am anti-abortion, but wonder if I have the right to demand by law that others do as I do.

What are you thoughts on the legalization of Christian beliefs on social issues?

I was where you are about 10 years ago. I believe, here in Ontario, the laws prohibiting abortion were struck down by the supreme court in 1988; and subsequently, the cost of these "abortions on demand" shortly thereafter became paid for by our provincial health care plan. A woman can get an abortion here because in interferes with her vacation plans, but if I have a disfiguring benign tumor in the middle of my face; it's removal is considered "cosmetic" and not covered.

People will do as people want to regardless of what the law says. Laws against prostitution, recreational drugs, murder and even speeding only work for those who chose to follow them.

What cheezes me off is my tax dollars are helping to pay for these abortions; in this I have no legal choice but to comply.

Bottom line is that we can not legislate righteousness.

I have not thought about this in some time, and now I'm angry.
 
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Resha Caner

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I am struggling with how I would answer if asked about whether I want a law against social issues such as abortion. As an LCMS member, I am anti-abortion, but wonder if I have the right to demand by law that others do as I do.

What are you thoughts on the legalization of Christian beliefs on social issues?

I want those laws in place (and enforced). However, we need to rethink how we go about it. For over 200 hundred years American Christians have operated as a majority, and we now need to begin considering ourselves a minority. I'm not advocating for some Lutheran version of Zionism, but we could learn something from how minority groups have opposed the majority.

My personal opinion is that we should push back against national government power and advocate for more local autonomy. Interestingly enough, that is what most German Lutherans were looking for when they migrated to the Midwest. They specifically picked areas like St. Louis because they were underdeveloped - far from the more established eastern states. The German communities did push pack as the U.S. started to expand west, but by WW1 they had lost out and assimilated.
 
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MichelleNoel

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I want those laws in place (and enforced). However, we need to rethink how we go about it. For over 200 hundred years American Christians have operated as a majority, and we now need to begin considering ourselves a minority. I'm not advocating for some Lutheran version of Zionism, but we could learn something from how minority groups have opposed the majority.

My personal opinion is that we should push back against national government power and advocate for more local autonomy. Interestingly enough, that is what most German Lutherans were looking for when they migrated to the Midwest. They specifically picked areas like St. Louis because they were underdeveloped - far from the more established eastern states. The German communities did push pack as the U.S. started to expand west, but by WW1 they had lost out and assimilated.

Those are good thoughts. I had not considered more local autonomy. Thanks, Resha!
 
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MichelleNoel

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That is a good question. We are told to follow the rulers God puts in place so long as they does not go against the Bible. If we believe abortion is a sin, we can choose not participate it in and we can push for legislation. I still don't know if legislating the issue is what we should do. We are also told to be in the world but not of it. I'll have to give this more prayer time.
 
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mrs. butel

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That is a good question. We are told to follow the rulers God puts in place so long as they does not go against the Bible. If we believe abortion is a sin, we can choose not participate it in and we can push for legislation. I still don't know if legislating the issue is what we should do. We are also told to be in the world but not of it. I'll have to give this more prayer time.
I think social issues are Already in law. Most think murder and robbery are wrong. Most think there should be laws. Against them. If enough folks agree we get a law made. That's how it used to work.
However some years ago a very few people decided that killing unborn children of God was not murder but a right. The law changed even though most were very much Againt it. Today we have killed about 60 million tiny humans and many think it is just fine, or maybe just sad.. Some day that same few "they" may decide killing me and you is a right too. Then what, should we just not participate or should we legislate. ???
 
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cerette

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My opinion is that the issue has now gone so far that it seems impossible to reverse. For that reason I don't engage in any active attempts to change the law; instead I try to talk to people whenever the opportunity arises.
I agree and understand that abortion is really really bad and "much worse" than many other sins, but I also find it a bit peculiar that Christians are so upset with the law allowing abortion, but nobody cares about the laws allowing divorce, fornication etc etc.
 
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Resha Caner

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My opinion is that the issue has now gone so far that it seems impossible to reverse.

Yes, it is odd where this is all going. I used to think libertarians ridiculous and Rand Paul an unacceptable Presidential candidate. Now I'm seriously considering it.
 
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Jim47

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Our laws mean little if anything. Even our so called president has violated almost every article of the US Constitution. The only thing you can do is to vote for people who uphold your views, if you can find any. If you have a chance to vote down abortion of course do it, but I doubt that will come in this life.

What is most important is that we try always to honor God's law, even when it disagree's with our civil law. And of course teach the same and tell people why. God doesn't change. The taking of a life is only for God to do. The only exception is when Godly men have to execute taking a life as a police officer may have to do, or a soldier during war. But it is never right to take a child'e life. An unborn child is God's child the same as you and I. . Parents are supposed to guard and protect their unborn children, and help to grow up in a God pleasing manner, always serving their Lord.
 
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LizaMarie

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I have no problem with Christians advocating for laws based on our Judeo Christian heritage, which my country was founded on. I know Lutherans have traditionally not gotten involved in Moral- majority type of stuff but as Mark says, now our tax dollars are paying for things we find abhorrent and I predict many parochial schools will be closed down if they won't hire people in same sex unions or teach that marriage is between one man and one woman.
Yes I know you can't "legislate morality" but I have no problem with laws based on the Ten Commandments.
After all this nation(America) was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.
I think it boils down to what kind of society we will have if we keep allowing marriage to be re-defined and
the sanctity of life increasingly chipped away at. We are already seeing life means nothing.
We will be right back like the pagan societies where life won't mean a thing and marriage will be dead.
And children will suffer.
 
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Studeclunker

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I am struggling with how I would answer if asked about whether I want a law against social issues such as abortion. As an LCMS member, I am anti-abortion, but wonder if I have the right to demand by law that others do as I do.

What are you thoughts on the legalization of Christian beliefs on social issues?

I will allow history itself to answer your question:
courtesy of Wikipedia by Pastor Martin Niemöller

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

"When Pastor Niemöller was put in a concentration camp we wrote the year 1937; when the concentration camp was opened we wrote the year 1933, and the people who were put in the camps then were Communists. Who cared about them? We knew it, it was printed in the newspapers.
Who raised their voice, maybe the Confessing Church? We thought: Communists, those opponents of religion, those enemies of Christians - "should I be my brother's keeper?"
Then they got rid of the sick, the so-called incurables. - I remember a conversation I had with a person who claimed to be a Christian. He said: Perhaps it's right, these incurably sick people just cost the state money, they are just a burden to themselves and to others. Isn't it best for all concerned if they are taken out of the middle [of society]? -- Only then did the church as such take note. Then we started talking, until our voices were again silenced in public. Can we say, we aren't guilty/responsible? The persecution of the Jews, the way we treated the occupied countries, or the things in Greece, in Poland, in Czechoslovakia or in Holland, that were written in the newspapers
I believe, we Confessing-Church-Christians have every reason to say: mea culpa, mea culpa! We can talk ourselves out of it with the excuse that it would have cost me my head if I had spoken out."

"There were no minutes or copy of what I said, and it may be that I formulated it differently. But the idea was anyhow: The communists, we still let that happen calmly; and the trade unions, we also let that happen; and we even let the Social Democrats happen. All of that was not our affair. The Church did not concern itself with politics at all at that time, and it shouldn't have anything do with them either. In the Confessing Church we didn't want to represent any political resistance per se, but we wanted to determine for the Church that that was not right, and that it should not become right in the Church, that's why already in '33, when we created the pastors' emergency federation (Pfarrernotbund), we put as the 4th point in the founding charter: If an offensive is made against ministers and they are simply ousted as ministers, because they are ofJewish lineage (Judenstämmlinge) or something like that, then we can only say as a Church: No. And that was then the 4th point in the obligation, and that was probably the first contra-anti-antisemitic pronouncement coming from the Protestant Church."

So, your question boils down actually to, "should the law restrain evil or not? What then is evil?"
So for whom do you draw the line in murder? What exactly is murder? The answer to all of these questions weren't even in doubt previous to the twentieth century. It was after WWI that these questions began to be asked, quietly... privately... carefully, as the public still wouldn't accept abortion, euthanasia, or eugenics. After the twenties, these things began to be spoken of openly, pressed by people like Margaret Sanger and Adolf Hitler. Clearly and simply put abortion is a form of infanticide. The Lord has always looked rather severely upon societies who practiced infanticide. In fact, he has a habit of utterly destroying them.

Let's get this straight; abortion isn't a social issue. It's infanticide and by definition murder. Sanity alone demands that Murder should be prohibited by law. Any form of it. The Lord demands this unequivocally and his punishment is quite severe to societies who choose to disobey him.
 
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