Where Mary's seemingly deistic identity stems from...

thing with that is that they are fleshly beings that were saved by a mighty God. We don't read in scripture where those whom have died in Christ can hear anything. But we sure do read that God can and does and will.

MamaZ said:

thing with that is that they are fleshly beings that were saved by a mighty God. We don't read in scripture where those whom have died in Christ can hear anything. But we sure do read that God can and does and will.

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Thats true because it wasn't explicitly written in what was included in the canon though written in many other places long before the decision of what was to be included in the cannon.

It was and is practiced as tradition from the beginning and historical and archaeological evidence supports that fact.

There is much left to mystery as to how the angels and saints can hear us yet we believe it is so.

I know that this is tradtion. But tradtion need to be backed up by Scirpture in order for the tradtion to be from God and not from Man born out of paganism.

This is why we are always being warned by Paul to beware of false prophets. Because they lead us from the very truth of Christ. We do not see Christ or any of the Apostles teaching this in the written scriptures nor any mention of it in the pages of scripture so one may ask where did these come from.

Some things were passed on as oral tradition, even during Paul's time. And Paul himself said 'hold fast to the tradition that was passed on to you."

Amylisa said:

Some things were passed on as oral tradition, even during Paul's time. And Paul himself said 'hold fast to the tradition that was passed on to you."

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This scripture is taken out of context of Paul was really saying.

MamaZ said:

I know that this is tradtion. But tradtion need to be backed up by Scirpture in order for the tradtion to be from God and not from Man born out of paganism.

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Can you show me where Scripture says that is how it must be?

MamaZ said:

This is why we are always being warned by Paul to beware of false prophets. Because they lead us from the very truth of Christ. We do not see Christ or any of the Apostles teaching this in the written scriptures nor any mention of it in the pages of scripture so one may ask where did these come from.

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Communion of the saints has always been a part of the way, Jesus taught this as His kingdom is not of this world.

Yet through the science of Hermeneutics: Understanding Revelation it can be implicitly seen through the interpretations of Scripture and thus your dear departed mom may in fact be able to hear you from where she is.

A brief study of such interpretation in the manner described in the link above is shown here:

A Biblical Portrait of Saint
The Canon of Holiness
The Role of the Saints
The Intercession of the Saints
How Do Saints Hear Us?

simonthezealot said:

Brother Joab,

If a (S)aint in heaven can hear us why can't someone whose a saint on earth hear us no matter where they are? Did you pray to Mother Teresa WHILE she was alive? or JP2

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This is how.


Almighty God you have given St. Anthony to your people as an outstanding preacher and a ready helper in time of need.
With his assistance may we follow the gospel of Christ and know the help of your grace in every difficulty. Grant this through our LORD JESUS Christ who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit one God for evere and ever Amen

simonthezealot said:

Christ is eternal think about that and then answer this part... why can't someone whose a saint on earth hear us no matter where they are?

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Because we are not united to God here in this temporal plain of exile as we will be in heaven. Heaven is a different and spiritual plain of existence. One that transcends space and time in the broad meaning of eternal. Your question makes me wonder if intuition, miracles, or appearance of angels is a fore-taste of that realm.

One of the great difficulties is the lack of information regarding the finitude of Christians in Heaven. Obviously, God is omniscient and omnipresent and can, therefore, hear the prayers of all believers sinultaneously and answer them, as well. Saints, by contrast, as created beings do not share these divine attributes (or at least there is no evidence that they do). If they are finite beings limited in that way, one would surmise that, like other Christians, they can hear, at best, one conversation at a time, and at one location, even assuming supernatural hearing abilities.

JoabAnias said:

Can you show me where Scripture says that is how it must be?

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Because only scripture is inspired by God and if someone comes and puts in tradtion that don't line up with scripture then someone somewhere goofed up and it isnt scripture.

simonthezealot said:

Christ is eternal think about that and then answer this part... why can't someone whose a saint on earth hear us no matter where they are?

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some can.

simonthezealot said:

Christ is eternal think about that and then answer this part... why can't someone whose a saint on earth hear us no matter where they are?

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Paul mentions his experience of this twice; once he calls it a dream (the prayer of the Macedonian), and the other time he says "in the Spirit" (Corinthians, IIRC)

bbbbbbb said:

One of the great difficulties is the lack of information regarding the finitude of Christians in Heaven. Obviously, God is omniscient and omnipresent and can, therefore, hear the prayers of all believers sinultaneously and answer them, as well. Saints, by contrast, as created beings do not share these divine attributes (or at least there is no evidence that they do). If they are finite beings limited in that way, one would surmise that, like other Christians, they can hear, at best, one conversation at a time, and at one location, even assuming supernatural hearing abilities.

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What you say is true, but I would maybe add that, although Saints do not have divine attributes, they are existing in eternity, outside of our time. We on earth are confined to doing one thing "at a time", but in eternity the phrase "at a time" may be meaningless, and so a lack of time or any arrangement of time would not be a hindrance as to what number of things they could do.

And I hope I don't sound like I'm handing out divine attributes here, but if you can see our earthly timeline from outside of it, a Saint may have been able to hear a prayer you pray at age 30, before you were even born, and thus have plenty of "time" to devote to it, and to all the other prayers.

The dead in Christ aren't watching us their basking in awe at the glory that is our creator our Lord to who all prayer should be directed.

their is no scriptural evidence they are paying any attention to us while on the other hand there is much evidence that when we are dead in Christ we will be captivativly enthralled by His Great glory

MamaZ said:

Because only scripture is inspired by God and if someone comes and puts in tradition that don't line up with scripture then someone somewhere goofed up and it isnt scripture.

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So your saying that there is no where in Scripture where it explicitly says tradition must be backed up with Scripture?

Something else I don't think is recognized here is that the tradition in question pre-existed the New Covenant Scriptures which were a result of said tradition. Although all of the Gospel is written truth, all truth is not written, only a smidgen.





There are two modes for one stream of revelation:

• • By "Letter", the written word, the Bible
  • By "Oral Statement", handing on, paradosis, tradition

The community of believers, the Church, sought to know what God authoritatively revealed to humankind.

The Bible itself does not define what it includes; nor does it claim to contain all that God revealed.

Paul affirms that some of what is handed on--the way Jews passed on revelation--was "by letter," in writing.

What is the standard--the canon--of the written Word of God? The Church recorded the history of the development of the canon of the Bible under the authority of the Holy Spirit.

A primary criterion of canonicity is inspiration, the divine influence on human writers such that God is said to be the author. And God's revelation, faithfully written, aptly expressed, was expressed with infallible truth.

We discover the meaning of the Bible--hermeneutics--by the literal sense of the words first, then the fuller sense, and then the typical sense of the words of Sacred Scripture.

1 Cor 2:9-10 But as it is written: "What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him," this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.

Mt 16:17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father."

2 Pet 1:21 for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.

Jesus has told us that he has not revealed all truths to us.

Jn 16:12-13 I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.

Jesus then told us how he was planning to assist us in knowing other truths.

Jn 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

Jn 15:26 When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me.

This all means sister that there is truth outside of the written word. The communion of the saints though implicitly outlined in Holy and Sacred Scripture is one of these truths explicitly outlined in oral tradition and the paradosis of the followers of the way.


Before the canon of Holy Scripture we see writings like these that further substantiate the claim:


"[T]hat it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples! The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps." Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18 (A.D. 157).

"[Appealing to the three companions of Daniel] Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom." Hippolytus of Rome, On Daniel, 11:30 (A.D. 204).

"As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours." Tertullian, The Crown, 3 (A.D. 211).

"Nor is that kind of title to glories in the case of Celerinus, our beloved, an unfamiliar and novel thing. He is advancing in the footsteps of his kindred; he rivals his parents and relations in equal honours of divine condescension. His grandmother, Celerina, was some time since crowned with martyrdom. Moreover, his paternal and maternal uncles, Laurentius and Egnatius, who themselves also were once warring in the camps of the world, but were true and spiritual soldiers of God, casting down the devil by the confession of Christ, merited palms and crowns from the Lord by their illustrious passion. We always offer sacrifices for them, as you remember, as often as we celebrate the passions and days of the martyrs in the annual commemoration. Nor could he, therefore, be degenerate and inferior whom this family dignity and a generous nobility provoked, by domestic examples of virtue and faith. But if in a worldly family it is a matter of heraldry and of praise to be a patrician, of bow much greater praise and honour is it to become of noble rank in the celestial heraldry! I cannot tell whom I should call more blessed,--whether those ancestors, for a posterity so illustrious, or him, for an origin so glorious. So equally between them does the divine condescension flow, and pass to and fro, that, just as the dignity of their offspring brightens their crown, so the sublimity of his ancestry illuminates his glory." Cyprian, To Clergy and People, Epistle 33(39):3 (A.D. 250).

"I am also of opinion that there were many persons of the same name with John the apostle, who by their love for him, and their admiration and emulation of him, and their desire to be loved by the Lord as he was loved, were induced to embrace also the same designation, just as we find many of the children of the faithful called by the names of Paul and Peter." Dionysius of Alexandria, Books of Promises, 5 (A.D. 257).

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9 (A.D. 350).

JoabAnias said:

Something else I don't think is recognized here is that the tradition in question pre-existed the New Covenant Scriptures which were a result of said tradition. Although all of the Gospel is written truth, all truth is not written, only a smidgen.

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yes that tradition did pre-exist the N.T. cannon but its still mans tradition there is a reason God chose to speak through His Son in these last days (Heb 1:2) and not through prophets, becouse prophets take the glory sometimes, sometimes they blow it ,prophets are humans with sinfull nature God will not force His divine will through us if it goes against the free will hes given us but on the otherhand ,paper and ink have no freewill and God can and does preserve His Word through the scriptures. tradition is man made and is only right when measured against scripture.