Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 27, 2024

keras said:
I have; and everyone can see how you falsely accuse those who refute you.

There is simply no scripture that proves the Lord will take His Church to heaven. That idea is a lie from Satan the father of lies.
It high time the Moderators chucked you off this Forum, for your rude and accusative attitude.

What does Jesus mean in Rev 3:10? In Rev 3:10 (ESV) He said, in part, “I will keep you from the hour of trial.”

He added that the hour of trial “is coming on the whole world…” Since we are kept from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, Jesus can’t mean we are relocated somewhere else on Earth since the hour of trial is coming on the whole earth.

Jesus also said that the hour of trial will only “try those who dwell on the earth.” That phrase, “those who dwell on the earth,” always means the unbelievers who are left behind after the pre-Trib rapture. That is proven true by every use of that phrase in the Trib. Rev 6:10 and Rev 11:10 are prime examples. That’s who’s on Earth, who are left behind after the pre-Trib rapture. Rev 6:4, Rev 6:15-17 and Rev 9:4 also prove there are no believers who enter the Trib.

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven, fully supported by Rev 3:10, 1 Th 1:10 (along with Ezek 14:21 and Rev 6:4), 1 Th 4:16-17, 1 Cor 15:52 and John 14:3.

Keras, every verse you could possibly come up with that allegedly invalidates the pre-Trib rapture is inapplicable because of the verses above. Is Jesus wrong in Rev 3:10? Is apostle Paul wrong in 1 Th 1:10?

If you ever claim again that “no verse” says the Church is raptured to Heaven, you are calling both Jesus and apostle Paul a liar.

keras · Dec 27, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
He added that the hour of trial “is coming on the whole world…” Since we are kept from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, Jesus can’t mean we are relocated somewhere else on Earth since the hour of trial is coming on the whole earth

You fail to even read the scriptures properly. The relocation of the faithful peoples is in Rev 12:14 and is to Keep His people safely away from the 'beast' for the 1260 days that he will have world control.

What scripture says and what I have always promoted; is how the Lord will protect His own during the hour of trial - the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal. Isaiah 41:13, 43:2, Zechariah 9:15-16, 2 Thess 1"7

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 27, 2024

keras said:
You fail to even read the scriptures properly. The relocation of the faithful peoples is in Rev 12:14 and is to Keep His people safely away from the 'beast' for the 1260 days that he will have world control.

What scripture says and what I have always promoted; is how the Lord will protect His own during the hour of trial - the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal. Isaiah 41:13, 43:2, Zechariah 9:15-16, 2 Thess 1"7

Keras, how can we be relocated on Earth after what Jesus said in Rev 3:10? He said, "I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth." There is nothing about protection while on Earth in Rev 3:10. It's about removal and rapture to Heaven because of the scriptural roles of 1 Th 1:10 and Rev 4:1. Only unbelievers ("those who dwell on the earth") are left behind to face trial by God's 21 judgments of wrath. Jesus said so in Rev 3:10. Also, the Bible verses that cite "those who dwell on the earth" in the context of the Trib, are always referring to unbelievers, only. The evidence of that claim is in Rev 6:10 and Rev 11:10.

Rev 12:14 occurs at the midpoint per Matt 24:16. At least 70% of the Bible is about Jews. Those verses are exclusively about Jews. They go through the Trib per Matt 24:22 and Rev 12:14.

You keep bypassing the early seals and only comment on the 6th seal. Your belief that the early seals have already been fulfilled is false. All of Rev 4 through Rev 21 are in the future. Show me the disaster in the 6th seal. Show me anyone getting killed in the 6th seal. All there is in the 6th seal is spectacular solar, lunar and earthly phenomena that so terrorizes unbelievers, that they make a grand public display of their rejection of Jesus. There are no believers cited in the 6th seal because of what Jesus said in Rev 3:10 and because of what will happen in 1 Th 1:10 and Rev 4:1.

Jesus clearly meant we are removed from Earth. You fail to understand that the Trib is only about repentance or eternal condemnation.

keras · Dec 27, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
You keep bypassing the early seals and only comment on the 6th seal. Your belief that the early seals have already been fulfilled is false.

Seals 1 to 5, were opened by Jesus at His Ascension. Proved by all the disasters described having frequently occurred since then.
For example; the Christian martyrs continue to be added to.

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Jesus clearly meant we are removed from Earth.

Jesus did make clear statements:

1/ John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven, except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man.
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

2/ Revelation 2-3 Those who are victorious over Satan and who persevere until the end, will receive the crown of Life.
They are the people seen in Revelation 6:9-14. On earth, as proved by the first 3 verses of Revelation 7.

3/ John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.

4/ John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

5/ John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.

6/ Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls sleep under the Altar, if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11
That they can cry out at times, does not mean they are living consciously.

All scripture is as Written in the Revised English Bible.

Ed Parenteau · Dec 27, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Elijah was raptured to Heaven in 2 Kings 2:11.

1 Th 1:10, Ezek 14:21, Rev 6:4, Rev 3:10 and Rev 4:1all combine to rapture the Church to Heaven pre-Trib.

Millions of new converts from the Trib are raptured to Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

You have falsely spoken.

No I have not spoken falsely, proven by the fact you have not even attempted to show how. Not even in the slightest bit do those verses combine to make a rapture of the church.
In 1 Th 1:10 the Thessalonians are told they are awaiting a Savior from heaven, while Rev 4:1 commands John “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 1 Th 4:16 is explicitly clear 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Rev 3:10 is directly speaking to the church at Philadelphia and it was something they had already been doing in the past tense that would keep "them" from the hour of testing.

Christ said over and over again that He would raise the dead on the last day. John 7:
24Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 6:39 John 6:40 John 6:54 etc.

As to Rev 9, there are no more 12 tribes and never will be again: Galatians 4:21-31.
Acts 3:22Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.
One thing for sure, they weren't proclaiming "our" days.

The 12 tribes were the 10's of thousands who were born again after Pentecost from every nation under heaven. They were the first redeemed to God from among men and were called first fruits.

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 27, 2024

keras said:
Seals 1 to 5, were opened by Jesus at His Ascension. Proved by all the disasters described having frequently occurred since then.
For example; the Christian martyrs continue to be added to.

Jesus did make clear statements:

1/ John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven, except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man.
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

2/ Revelation 2-3 Those who are victorious over Satan and who persevere until the end, will receive the crown of Life.
They are the people seen in Revelation 6:9-14. On earth, as proved by the first 3 verses of Revelation 7.

3/ John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.

4/ John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

5/ John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.

6/ Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls sleep under the Altar, if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11
That they can cry out at times, does not mean they are living consciously.

All scripture is as Written in the Revised English Bible.

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Rev 4:1 hasn't yet occurred, and it's the intro to the proceedings that lead to the opening of the seals. The seals will be opened in Heaven. You say He opened them at His ascension, on Earth. thousands of years ago. One of you has it wrong.

Your verses by John are about the disciples of Jesus wanting to follow Him in His ascension, to Heaven.

Rev 5:10 is about the MK, that will occur over seven years after the pre-Trib rapture.

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 27, 2024

Ed Parenteau said:
No I have not spoken falsely, proven by the fact you have not even attempted to show how. Not even in the slightest bit do those verses combine to make a rapture of the church.
In 1 Th 1:10 the Thessalonians are told they are awaiting a Savior from heaven, while Rev 4:1 commands John “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 1 Th 4:16 is explicitly clear 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Rev 3:10 is directly speaking to the church at Philadelphia and it was something they had already been doing in the past tense that would keep "them" from the hour of testing.

Christ said over and over again that He would raise the dead on the last day. John 7:
24Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 6:39 John 6:40 John 6:54 etc.

As to Rev 9, there are no more 12 tribes and never will be again: Galatians 4:21-31.
Acts 3:22Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.
One thing for sure, they weren't proclaiming "our" days.

The 12 tribes were the 10's of thousands who were born again after Pentecost from every nation under heaven. They were the first redeemed to God from among men and were called first fruits.

Regarding the verses that combine to prove the pre-Trib rapture, you are missing two things. Not one verse says it all about the rapture. It is taught in the verses cited. You need to know their proper sequence. 1 Th 4:16 is first. Then, 1 Cor 15:52, Then, 1 Th 4:17. The remaining verses are all about our being taken to Heaven. You have spoken falsely, again.

keras · Dec 27, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Rev 4:1 hasn't yet occurred, and it's the intro to the proceedings that lead to the opening of the seals. The seals will be opened in Heaven. You say He opened them at His ascension, on Earth. thousands of years ago. One of you has it wrong.

Your verses by John are about the disciples of Jesus wanting to follow Him in His ascension, to Heaven.

Rev 5:10 is about the MK, that will occur over seven years after the pre-Trib rapture.

Entirely your imaginings.
The simple fact is, a rapture to heaven of the Church is never Prophesied. That theory is a Satanic lie, promoted by 'wolf' teachers onto the gullible.

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 28, 2024

keras said:
Entirely your imaginings.
The simple fact is, a rapture to heaven of the Church is never Prophesied. That theory is a Satanic lie, promoted by 'wolf' teachers onto the gullible.

John was never raptured in Rev 4:1. He only wrote Rev 4:1, just like all of Rev. He was shown everything he heard and saw by one angel. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove it.

Therefore, Rev 4:1 will be fulfilled as the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 28, 2024

Ed Parenteau said:
No I have not spoken falsely, proven by the fact you have not even attempted to show how. Not even in the slightest bit do those verses combine to make a rapture of the church.
In 1 Th 1:10 the Thessalonians are told they are awaiting a Savior from heaven, while Rev 4:1 commands John “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 1 Th 4:16 is explicitly clear 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Rev 3:10 is directly speaking to the church at Philadelphia and it was something they had already been doing in the past tense that would keep "them" from the hour of testing.

Christ said over and over again that He would raise the dead on the last day. John 7:
24Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 6:39 John 6:40 John 6:54 etc.

As to Rev 9, there are no more 12 tribes and never will be again: Galatians 4:21-31.
Acts 3:22Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.
One thing for sure, they weren't proclaiming "our" days.

The 12 tribes were the 10's of thousands who were born again after Pentecost from every nation under heaven. They were the first redeemed to God from among men and were called first fruits.

The last day is the day of the pre-Trib rapture. That will be through Rev 4:1. John was never raptured in Rev 4:1. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove he was shown everything he saw and heard, by one angel. Read those two verses and you will learn the truth.

Ed Parenteau · Dec 28, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Regarding the verses that combine to prove the pre-Trib rapture, you are missing two things. Not one verse says it all about the rapture. It is taught in the verses cited. You need to know their proper sequence. 1 Th 4:16 is first. Then, 1 Cor 15:52, Then, 1 Th 4:17. The remaining verses are all about our being taken to Heaven. You have spoken falsely, again.

Nope, 4:16 is simultaneously with 1 Cor 15:52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. Both happen at the same time.
1 Th 4:17Then(means afterwards) we who are alive, who are left, will be(future tense) caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
According to scripture, the resurrection and the judgement happen on the last day at the last trumpet. The catching away happens after that, the scripture is clear.

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 28, 2024

Ed Parenteau said:
No I have not spoken falsely, proven by the fact you have not even attempted to show how. Not even in the slightest bit do those verses combine to make a rapture of the church.
In 1 Th 1:10 the Thessalonians are told they are awaiting a Savior from heaven, while Rev 4:1 commands John “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 1 Th 4:16 is explicitly clear 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Rev 3:10 is directly speaking to the church at Philadelphia and it was something they had already been doing in the past tense that would keep "them" from the hour of testing.

Christ said over and over again that He would raise the dead on the last day. John 7:
24Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 6:39 John 6:40 John 6:54 etc.

As to Rev 9, there are no more 12 tribes and never will be again: Galatians 4:21-31.
Acts 3:22Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.
One thing for sure, they weren't proclaiming "our" days.

The 12 tribes were the 10's of thousands who were born again after Pentecost from every nation under heaven. They were the first redeemed to God from among men and were called first fruits.

keras said:

Entirely your imaginings.
The simple fact is, a rapture to heaven of the Church is never Prophesied. That theory is a Satanic lie, promoted by 'wolf' teachers onto the gullible.

Click to expand...

The pre-Trib rapture is prophesied. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will next return “in the same way” he ascended.

That same way was in view of believers, only.

Jesus will return in the pre-Trib rapture in 1 Th 4:17. He will descend into the view of believers, only.

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 28, 2024

Ed Parenteau said:
Nope, 4:16 is simultaneously with 1 Cor 15:52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. Both happen at the same time.
1 Th 4:17Then(means afterwards) we who are alive, who are left, will be(future tense) caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
According to scripture, the resurrection and the judgement happen on the last day at the last trumpet. The catching away happens after that, the scripture is clear.

We said the same things about 1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:52. You’re quoting the actual verses, which is good, but you’re splitting hairs over my comments about them.

That last-day judgement is the Judgement Seat of Christ: 2 Cor 5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

That judgment occurs on the day of the pre-Trib, per 2 Tim 4:8.

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 29, 2024

Ed Parenteau said:
Nope, 4:16 is simultaneously with 1 Cor 15:52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. Both happen at the same time.
1 Th 4:17Then(means afterwards) we who are alive, who are left, will be(future tense) caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
According to scripture, the resurrection and the judgement happen on the last day at the last trumpet. The catching away happens after that, the scripture is clear.

You are misquoting 1 Th 4:16-17. First is the shout in verse 16. What does Jesus shout? The answer is in Rev 4:1: "Come up here!" You see? Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

Next in verse 16 is the trumpet sound that starts 1 Cor 15:52. Then, the dead in Christ are raised in their eternal bodies, and we, too, are changed into our eternal bodies. We are then snatched away (verse 17, per 1 Th 1:10 and Rev 4:1) to Heaven.

2 Tim 4:8 says the Judgment Seat of Christ will occur "on that day." That is the day of the pre-Trib rapture and after we are in Heaven.

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 29, 2024

keras said:
Entirely your imaginings.
The simple fact is, a rapture to heaven of the Church is never Prophesied. That theory is a Satanic lie, promoted by 'wolf' teachers onto the gullible.

The pre-Trib rapture is prophesied. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will next return “in the same way” he ascended.

That same way was in view of believers, only.

Jesus will next return in the pre-Trib rapture in 1 Th 4:17. He will descend into the view of believers, only.

Ed Parenteau · Dec 29, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
You are misquoting 1 Th 4:16-17. First is the shout in verse 16. What does Jesus shout? The answer is in Rev 4:1: "Come up here!" You see? Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

Next in verse 16 is the trumpet sound that starts 1 Cor 15:52. Then, the dead in Christ are raised in their eternal bodies, and we, too, are changed into our eternal bodies. We are then snatched away (verse 17, per 1 Th 1:10 and Rev 4:1) to Heaven.

2 Tim 4:8 says the Judgment Seat of Christ will occur "on that day." That is the day of the pre-Trib rapture and after we are in Heaven.

I am absolutely not misquoting anything. You're claiming that Christ descending from heaven is equal to John going up to heaven. They are contrary statements. Up does not equal down. You're now claiming a pre tribulation resurrection, but the scripture says with absolute clarity that it takes place at the last trump on the last day.

1Th 1:9For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 29, 2024

Ed Parenteau said:
I am absolutely not misquoting anything. You're claiming that Christ descending from heaven is equal to John going up to heaven. They are contrary statements. Up does not equal down. You're now claiming a pre tribulation resurrection, but the scripture says with absolute clarity that it takes place at the last trump on the last day.

1Th 1:9For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Prove John went to Heaven.

You need to know what the "last trump" is. You also need to know when it is sounded. Please see below.

The Last Trump | Learn The Bible | LearnTheBible.org

Is the trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 the same as the trumpet of Revelation 11:15? If so, doesn't this mean that the church will not be raptured out until the end of the tribulation?

www.learnthebible.org

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 29, 2024

Ed Parenteau said:
I am absolutely not misquoting anything. You're claiming that Christ descending from heaven is equal to John going up to heaven. They are contrary statements. Up does not equal down. You're now claiming a pre tribulation resurrection, but the scripture says with absolute clarity that it takes place at the last trump on the last day.

1Th 1:9For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Th 4:16 is the verse that sounds the last trump. The "last trump" in 1 Cor 15:52 has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet.

As of the pre-Trib rapture, we first hear a shout: "Come up here!" That's the same shout in Rev 11:12.

The last trump is sounded. The dead in Christ are raised, and we too, the living believers, are changed into our eternal bodies.

1 Th 4:17 then immediately takes us into heavenly clouds to where we will meet our glorious Lord Jesus. Jesus will descend into the view of believers only, to fulfill Acts 1:11.

Ed Parenteau · Dec 30, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Prove John went to Heaven.

You need to know what the "last trump" is. You also need to know when it is sounded. Please see below.

The Last Trump | Learn The Bible | LearnTheBible.org

Is the trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 the same as the trumpet of Revelation 11:15? If so, doesn't this mean that the church will not be raptured out until the end of the tribulation?

www.learnthebible.org

4:1 Tells John to "come up here".
4:2 is where he's in the spirit and "voila" he's in heaven. He's in heaven seeing visions at least through chapter 7. The first church members we see are in chapter 6:9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Is this what you refer to as every day trials and tribulation? And when would the rest of them be murdered for their faith?

I think the problem of the late dating of the Revelation causes a total rewrite of eschatology. For instance, John is told to measure the temple. Paul says the "man of sin" will sit in "the temple of God". What happens is that man then assumes things not stated and then makes those assumptions equal to scripture.
Jude said the faith was once and for all delivered to the saints. If Revelation was written after Jude, then that would put it outside the faith.

keras · Dec 30, 2024

Ed Parenteau said:
What happens is that man then assumes things not stated and then makes those assumptions equal to scripture.

Yes, and for doing that, there will be punishment:

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 The coming of this wicked person is the work of Satan, it will be accompanied by all the powerful signs and miracles that falsehood can devise and every sort of evil that deceives those who do not open their minds to the truth. They are doomed to perish, because they refuse to listen to the Gospel of the truth, so God has put them under a compelling delusion; which makes them believe what is false. So all will be judged and condemned who have rejected the truth, but have made sinfulness their choice.

Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

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