Where is the empty tomb?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Apr 1, 2021

Mosheli said:
I think that out of the 3 candidates for the tomb that the Garden Tomb near Skull Hill / Gordon's Calvary is the best candidate. The Holy Sepulcher is very doubtful for various reasons, and the Talpiot tomb certainly doesn't match the Jesus of the gospels. All-Dread: Garden Tomb

No, the so-called garden tomb has been proven not be correct. The only tomb that has been proven historically and archeologically is in the Church of the Resurrection.

Mosheli · Apr 2, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
No, the so-called garden tomb has been proven not be correct. The only tomb that has been proven historically and archeologically is in the Church of the Resurrection.

Where can I see the alleged proof that Garden Tomb not correct and that Holy Sepulcher correct? As I haven't seen/heard any proof for those. Once I see the evidence I can then give my weighing of it plus try to collate my own past evidences on Holy Sepulcher and on Garden Tomb.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Apr 2, 2021

Mosheli said:
Where can I see the alleged proof that Garden Tomb not correct and that Holy Sepulcher correct? As I haven't seen/heard any proof for those. Once I see the evidence I can then give my weighing of it plus try to collate my own past evidences on Holy Sepulcher and on Garden Tomb.

National Geographic has done work on it. Dr Biddle has written a book on it. The garden tomb is much too old to be correct (see Israel's leading archaeologists Dr. Gabby Barkay's and Dr. Danny Bahat's research). Within the Church, there are other 1st Century tombs. Everything fits for the Church tomb and almost nothing fits for the garden tomb. Lots of research out there...

Mosheli · Apr 2, 2021

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
National Geographic has done work on it. Dr Biddle has written a book on it. The garden tomb is much too old to be correct (see Israel's leading archaeologists Dr. Gabby Barkay's and Dr. Danny Bahat's research). Within the Church, there are other 1st Century tombs. Everything fits for the Church tomb and almost nothing fits for the garden tomb. Lots of research out there...

Thanks for some references though it is not much help (no links to online articles), so I'll have to do my own research (again since I can't remember/find all my previous ones). So far I've gone through the Holy Sepulchre and I find that it has no real proof or evidence for being the site of Calvary and tomb of Jesus except for anonymous 1st century burial bed and allegedly 3 crosses found there by Helena in 300s ad. The site is only identified as Calvary & tomb from 300s ad. There was a Roman temple/temples to Jupiter &/or Venus there from 100s to 300s. I believe they lyingly reassigned the pagan site to christian site like they also did with many other sites and "saints" and holy days. Presumably Jupiter Capitolinus was made into "Jesus Christ" or "Peter", and Venus into "Mary". I don't see any reason for it being named place of the skull. The rock may not be a suitable ground for the 3 crosses. The bible doesn't say anything about any cave that the tomb was deep inside of. Another possible reason why the site was made the crucifixion site is because it was beside the intersection of the main North-South and West-East roads (which forms a cross and is also a type of centre of the world). Interestingly the HS site has had quakes and lots of fires and brawls/fights! which also suggest it is not truly christian/messianic but pagan/Roman. I will give my conclusions on Garden tomb evidences for & against it if/when I have been able to go over conventional articles on it again. All I remember at the moment is that the alleged dating not matching is not so certain/definite/reliable as asserted.

prodromos · Apr 20, 2021

Mosheli said:
I believe they lyingly reassigned the pagan site to christian site like they also did with many other sites and "saints" and holy days.

This is an interesting claim. What are the other sites and "saints" and holy days that you believe are reassigned from pagan? What evidence do you have to back up this claim?

Mosheli · Apr 24, 2021

Mosheli said:
I believe they lyingly reassigned the pagan site to christian site like they also did with many other sites and "saints" and holy days.

prodromos said:
This is an interesting claim. What are the other sites and "saints" and holy days that you believe are reassigned from pagan? What evidence do you have to back up this claim?

I'll start another thread on this or post in an existing one if there is already one on this, since it would be in danger of being off topic here.

Ray Glenn · Apr 17, 2022

Consider this. The tomb was purchased by Joseph for his own burial. Loaned for the burial of Jesus. Jesus rises and the tomb is empty. Consider the possible age of Joseph. Joseph has to know that Jesus is not in the tomb three days later. In fact, all of Jerusalem knows something happened. Does Joseph consider the empty tomb as a sacred site? Or does he use his tomb as originally intended? We can go no further than 70AD in this puzzle. Why? The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, meaning that every Jew in the City has been dispatched to Rome or killed. Has Joseph expired before the temple is destroyed? If so, is he buried in that tomb along with members of his family? Go further ....Constantine eventually sends his wife and soldiers to Jerusalem to find artifacts and locations. Locations from who? Have they taken a Jewish slave with them or used a local? The Temple mount is easy to find. A Roman garrison still guards the city to prevent Jews from occupying the city any longer. The Governor's mansion might not be too hard to find ....However, I read an article that claimed some of the Jewish guides falsely pointed out where some sites were located. Because they didn't believe the Romans to be honorable in their intentions. The mystery then becomes ...if Joseph used the tomb and died before 70AD, he and members of his family would be in boxes within the tomb. No such mention of that is provided in discovery.

The truth shall never be known ....in reality does it actually matter? The tomb was empty and Roman Guards were not put to death because they "fell asleep on Guard."

Vap841 · Apr 17, 2022

Tolworth John said:
Like the Angels said, Why are you looking among the dead? He has risen.'

Well, imagine how surreal it would be to actually know for a fact where it is!! Just standing there would be the most intense natural high ever. I think I’d be more inclined to visit the holy land if such locations were not just educated guesses, but you knew for a fact that you were standing on the exact spot without question.

Tolworth John · Apr 18, 2022

Vap841 said:
Well, imagine how surreal it would be to actually know for a fact where it is!! Just standing there would be the most intense natural high ever. I think I’d be more inclined to visit the holy land if such locations were not just educated guesses, but you knew for a fact that you were standing on the exact spot without question.

The place is just a place. It is the Facts and how we relate to them that matters.

Mosheli · Apr 22, 2022

See my notes on the Garden Tomb and Holy Sepulcher here
Garden Tomb versus Holy Sepulchre
(sorry too long to post here and I don't have the alot of time either). Note the bits on Aramathea/Arimathea, etc. I think the Garden tomb is surely right for all the reasons in the table there.

Vap841 · Apr 22, 2022

Tolworth John said:
The place is just a place. It is the Facts and how we relate to them that matters.

Is Aruba JUST a place? Is the Great Pyramid of Giza just a rock?? Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor???

prodromos · Apr 22, 2022

Mosheli said:
See my notes on the Garden Tomb and Holy Sepulcher here
Garden Tomb versus Holy Sepulchre
(sorry too long to post here and I don't have the alot of time either). Note the bits on Aramathea/Arimathea, etc. I think the Garden tomb is surely right for all the reasons in the table there.

None of Wyatt's claims have been verified. He is the only one to have 'seen' what he claims to have seen. No peer review, no other witnesses, just his word.

Mosheli · Apr 23, 2022

prodromos said:
None of Wyatt's claims have been verified. He is the only one to have 'seen' what he claims to have seen. No peer review, no other witnesses, just his word.

Nothing to do with Wyatt. The Garden tomb was found and suggested long before him. If you read my table in the academia paper it hardly refers to Wyatt and it has good evidences reasons. Besides which his claim that the Ark is under Skull Hill does seem somewhat possible supporting evidence, since it is about the only place the ark could be that makes any much biblical sense.
No other claims for Jesus tomb are known/found except Garden Tomb, Holy Sepulchre, and Talpiot. The 3rd/last is def wrong. The 2nd is pretty certainly not right. The 1st does seem to fit despite some seeming supposed difficulties.
Maybe God doesn't always make everything outright definite so that only those who believe can/do see and those who don't want to can't? We have no proofs of alot of things in bible and in world history too and yet surely you don't ditch them all.

I do personally question some of Wyatt's claimed finds for some reasons. But it is by no means definite either way that some of them are or are not true.
Plus some of Wyatt's claims have been verified. I have proven Joseph was when and where he said in Egypt. No one has disproven his Aqaba chariots (despite claims they have), and no one has found any chariots parts anywhere else all around the "Sinai" peninsula. Peer review is not possible when "peers" refuse to even play fair and give a fair chance hearing of all the evidences. "Peers" can lie or be wrong just like all other sinners.
But Wyatt is irrelevant. Only the details matches evidences of the specific thing (in this case the tomb) matter. No one denies there are some alleged doubts/difficulties about the Garden Tomb like the date, but there is enough evidence for it for me to feel sure it must be the right tomb and that the supposed seeming doubts are not definite reliable rpoof or disproof against it.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Apr 23, 2022

Mosheli said:
See my notes on the Garden Tomb and Holy Sepulcher here
Garden Tomb versus Holy Sepulchre
(sorry too long to post here and I don't have the alot of time either). Note the bits on Aramathea/Arimathea, etc. I think the Garden tomb is surely right for all the reasons in the table there.

The garden tomb is not even a 1st century AD tomb lol! The tomb has been dated by Israeli archaeologist Gabriel Barkay to the 8th–7th centuries BC.

Mosheli · Apr 24, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
The garden tomb is not even a 1st century AD tomb lol! The tomb has been dated by Israeli archaeologist Gabriel Barkay to the 8th–7th centuries BC.

The date is not so certain as they claim. And even if it is the meaning of the words "new tomb" "never laid" is also not so certain meaning/interpretation as made out esp conparing all 4 gospels versions. So this recurring claimed disproof is not definite reliable proof/disproof of anything against the Garden tomb. And if people are so smart I don't see anyone has found any other better candidate since the only other rival one the Holy Sepulchre is proven a fake in my table in that paper. Barkay is also maybe not a true Jewish or Messianic/Christian believer. If you really genuine follower of HaDerek Yeshua ask him and also strive to find the truth and he will help see which side evidences are more quality and quantity even if he doesn't always clearly easily fully show the stark whole truth in everything yet.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Apr 24, 2022

Mosheli said:
The date is not so certain as they claim. And even if it is the meaning of the words "new tomb" "never laid" is also not so certain meaning/interpretation as made out esp conparing all 4 gospels versions. So this recurring claimed disproof is not definite reliable proof/disproof of anything against the Garden tomb. And if people are so smart I don't see anyone has found any other better candidate since the only other rival one the Holy Sepulchre is proven a fake in my table in that paper. Barkay is also maybe not a true Jewish or Messianic/Christian believer. If you really genuine follower of HaDerek Yeshua ask him and also strive to find the truth and he will help see which side evidences are more quality and quantity even if he doesn't always clearly easily fully show the stark whole truth in everything yet.

LOL, all you provide is excuses! Most real scientists/archaeologists say the garden tomb is fake while those same scientist say the Holy Tomb site is really the best candidate. Barkay is a scientist. That he is Jewish makes what he says regarding this even more unbaised IMO. That Garden tomb has no leg to stand on...

Tolworth John · Apr 25, 2022

Vap841 said:
Is Aruba JUST a place? Is the Great Pyramid of Giza just a rock?? Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor???

As the germans didn't bomb pearl harbour I wonder what you are getting at !

Places are not spiritual, one does not gain spiritual points by going to them or performing rituals at them.
There value is in pointing one to Jesus and what he did for us.

Mosheli · Apr 26, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
LOL, all you provide is excuses! Most real scientists/archaeologists say the garden tomb is fake while those same scientist say the Holy Tomb site is really the best candidate. Barkay is a scientist. That he is Jewish makes what he says regarding this even more unbaised IMO. That Garden tomb has no leg to stand on...

Not true. In the paper I gave link to I provided evidences not excuses. Only reliable actual detail matches evidences matter, not credentials/authority. Even "experts" and majorities can by lying or wrong or exclusive. Jewish unbiased? Hello, remember how they treated Jesus and what Jesus said about them? Only 1/3rd of Jews will be saved, the 2/3rds rest perish. I respect Messianic Jews, and I even respect non-Messianic Jews insights on biblical meanings and cultural background etc. But unsaved Jews are not unbiased etc. Everything I have to say on the Garden Tomb and Holy Sepulchre is already said in that free paper, and it is too long to post here all in one or bit by bit sorry. The GT date is not definitely reliable, and/or the NT "new" "never laid" is not definitely correctly translated/interpreted/understood, so the dates objection is not definite disproof/proof against the GT, and it is not just excuses it is just simply not trusting some "experts" claims as if they are all right gods but trying best to see the truth through the evidences claims. However we are both free to agree to disagree and to respect each others reasons why. It is not necessarily a big/major deal like a salvation issue.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Apr 26, 2022

Mosheli said:
Not true. In the paper I gave link to I provided evidences not excuses. Only reliable actual detail matches evidences matter, not credentials/authority. Even "experts" and majorities can by lying or wrong or exclusive. Jewish unbiased? Hello, remember how they treated Jesus and what Jesus said about them? Only 1/3rd of Jews will be saved, the 2/3rds rest perish. I respect Messianic Jews, and I even respect non-Messianic Jews insights on biblical meanings and cultural background etc. But unsaved Jews are not unbiased etc. Everything I have to say on the Garden Tomb and Holy Sepulchre is already said in that free paper, and it is too long to post here all in one or bit by bit sorry. The GT date is not definitely reliable, and/or the NT "new" "never laid" is not definitely correctly translated/interpreted/understood, so the dates objection is not definite disproof/proof against the GT, and it is not just excuses it is just simply not trusting some "experts" claims as if they are all right gods but trying best to see the truth through the evidences claims. However we are both free to agree to disagree and to respect each others reasons why. It is not necessarily a big/major deal like a salvation issue.

Seriously lol?!?! You have 2 CHRISTIAN sites and JEWISH archaeologists date one 100s of years too old and the other as the only possible candidate. What skin do they have in the game?!?! Nothing! Unsaved has nothing to do with anything regarding this! Just another excuse. Now Christian archaeologists could be biased for sure! Again, the GT does not have a leg to stand on...

Ray Glenn · Jul 2, 2022

When asked about the tomb consider this. The tomb was owned by Joseph of Armathea. In all likelihood Joseph died before Rome sacked Jerusalem within 40 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. Joseph and his family likely buried in the tomb. Thousands of Jews were slaughtered during that siege. Those not killed were taken as slaves back to Rome. Constantine's wife then goes on an Expedition to Jerusalem. The city is destroyed, a Roman Garrison still place to prevent any settling in the city. Exactly what are the chances that a hundred years later, someone knows exactly where the actual tomb exists? Basic large structures like the temple mount likely, but the exact location of one tomb? Like trying to find a house.

Where is the empty tomb?

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