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gnine said:It comes from the book of Ecclesiastes...
Ecclesiastes 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.
Only kiddin...
AND lets not forget that most of the "-ists" on the political spectrum exists on the left. Social-IST commun-IST anarch-IST Fasc-IST. ALL on the left.neverforsaken said:i think its about sound. leftist just sounds better than lefter or leftian or whatever. but i think it is kinda like an ideal. commun-ist, capital-ist, conform-ist, etc. i think even baptist is like that too.
Spawn said:AND lets not forget that most of the "-ists" on the political spectrum exists on the left. Social-IST commun-IST anarch-IST Fasc-IST. ALL on the left.
TheNewman said:uhhh...fascism is definitely on the right side of the spectrum, along with other such oppressive isms as nazism, corporatism (corporat-ISTS), and absolutism (absolut-ISTS).
paz
But see - I don't mind being called "religious right." I am religious and gosh darn it - I'm rightutdbear said:Leftist is about as derogatory as calling evangelicals the 'Religious Right'
mhatten said:How it sounds and how it is used are two different animals. In most instances it ihas a negarive conotation.
TheNewman said:uhhh...fascism is definitely on the right side of the spectrum, along with other such oppressive isms as nazism, corporatism (corporat-ISTS), and absolutism (absolut-ISTS).
paz
Spawn said:so·cial·ism
any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
Nazism is a form of Socialism - it's in the very NAME - Nationalsozialist, from national national + Sozialist socialist
Fascism is a form of SOCIALISM - it advocates central collective government ownership of the means of production - a socialist notion.
Wikipedia said:Fascism (in Italian, fascismo), capitalized, refers to the right-wing authoritarian political movement which ruled Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini. The word fascism (uncapitalized) has come to mean any political stance or system of government resembling Mussolini's, as further discussed below.
Nazism - Hitler and the Nazis were one of numerous nationalist and increasingly fascistic groups that existed in Germany and contended for leadership of the anti-Communist movement and, eventually, of the German state. Fascism and its German variant, National Socialism, became the successful challengers to Communism because they were able to both appeal to the establishment as a bulwark against Bolshevism and appeal to the working class base, particularly the growing underclass of unemployed and unemployable and growingly impoverished middle class elements who were becoming declassed (the lumpenproletariat). The Nazi's use of socialist rhetoric appealed to disaffection with capitalism while presenting a political and economic model that divested "socialism" of any elements which were dangerous to capitalism, such as the concept of class struggle, "the dictatorship of the proletariat" or worker control of the means of production.
Britanica said:A fascist government is usually characterized as "extreme right-wing," and a socialist government as "left-wing."
jmverville said:It embraces liberal political positions such as public ownership of major industries, public schools, social programs, etc.
TheNewman said:You've got to be joking me. That is the exact OPPOSITE of fascism. Fascism is where the governemnet seizes control of schools, and vital industries. Mussolini even stated that fascism was a revolt agains laissez-faire economics and Bolshevism. Mussolini feared trade unions and did everything he could to suppres them.
If I could post a picture of the political spectrum, I would. But actually since I can't maybe it's a blessing in disguise. Would one of you please find me a chart of the political spectrum (with source) and post it in this thread. That should hopefully answer all of your questions.
TheNewman said:Interestingly, Wikipedia goes on to note that the term "National Socialism" was originally invented as a tongue-and-cheek analogy to "Sozi" (German term for the socialist party) but because it became so popular, Hitler decided to keep it as the name of the party.
So in conclusion, fascism is not a form of socialism. In fact fascism was formed IN OPPOSITION of socialism. It's even more humorous when you see that the advocates of fascism were FORMER socialists (such as Mussolini) who were very much opposed to socialist ideaology. In a nutshell, fascism rejects class struggle and the need to replace capitalism with a society run by the proletariat. And of course, those two beliefs alone make up 99% of the ideals of socialism.
7. We demand that the first priority of the state should be to ensure that its citizens have work and decent living conditions. Where it is not possible to feed all the citizens of the state, foreign nationals (who have no citizenship rights) should be repatriated.
13. We demand the nationalization of all publicly owned companies (Trusts).
14. We demand profit sharing by all large companies.
15. We demand that generous improvements be made in old-age pensions.
16. We demand the setting up and maintenance of a healthy middle class. The large department stores should be placed immediately under the control of local authorities and should be leased out to small businesses at low rents. Small businesses must have the keenest regard in the matter of deliveries to the state, the Länder or the local authorities.
17. We demand property reform in line with our national requirements and legislation permitting compulsory purchase of property if this is in the national interest. We demand the abolition of ground rents and the banning of property speculation.
20. There must be a thorough overhaul of the state education system in order that every capable and diligent German receives a good education, enabling them to obtain leading positions of employment. The curricula of all educational establishments must adapt to practical requirements. We must seek to instill national ideas from the earliest school age (lessons in citizenship). We demand that talented children of poor parents should receive state support irrespective of class or employment.
21. The state must ensure the general good health of its citizens by providing for mothers and children, by banning child labor, by ensuring physical fitness through a legal obligation to participate in sport or gymnastics and by giving support to associations involved in those fields.
ACTUALLY - I'm a certified teacher, I have been published several times and am presently working on my Doctorate in American history of all things TYVMTheNewman said:Seriously...it's as if you've never taken a history or comparative politics course before.
From Wikipedia:
Interestingly, Wikipedia goes on to note that the term "National Socialism" was originally invented as a tongue-and-cheek analogy to "Sozi" (German term for the socialist party) but because it became so popular, Hitler decided to keep it as the name of the party.
Note that is quote does not imply that Nazism is not socialist - only that the name Nazi was applied in a tongue in cheek manner.The term is derived from the word Nazi, which is used to label the supporters of the National Socialism. This term in turn was originally invented as tongue-in-cheek analogy to Sozi (a common and slightly pejorative abbreviation for socialists in Germany), but became more popular and much more pejorative than the original.
Ideological theory
The success of National Socialism has been attributed to the fact that it drew support from two popular ideologies, nationalism and socialism. The Nazis sought to build a strong State militarily, and a strong Welfare state economically, to protect and serve the interests of racially pure Germans, while being led by a supreme leader. They also wanted to abolish Social parasitism and to build a planned economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
After World War I a number of extremist political groups arose in Germany, including the minuscule German Workers party, whose spokesman was Gottfried Feder. Its program combined socialist economic ideas with rabid nationalism and opposition to democracy.
http://www.bartleby.com/65/na/NatlSoci.html
Why Are We Socialists?
by Joseph Goebbels
We are socialists because we see in socialism, that is the union of all citizens, the only chance to maintain our racial inheritance and to regain our political freedom and renew our German state.
Socialism is the doctrine of liberation for the working class. It promotes the rise of the fourth class and its incorporation in the political organism of our Fatherland, and is inextricably bound to breaking the present slavery and the regaining of German freedom. Socialism therefore is not merely a matter of the oppressed class, but a matter for everyone, for freeing the German people from slavery is the goal of contemporary policy. Socialism gains its true form only through a total combat brotherhood with the forward-striving energies of a newly awakened nationalism. Without nationalism it is nothing, a phantom, a mere theory, a castle in the sky, a book. With it it is everything, the future, freedom, the Fatherland!
The sin of liberal thinking was to overlook socialism's nation-building strengths, thereby allowing its energies to go in anti-national directions. The sin of Marxism was to degrade socialism into a question of wages and the stomach, putting it in conflict with the state and its national existence. An understanding of both these facts leads us to a new sense of socialism, which sees its nature as nationalistic, state-building, liberating and constructive.
The bourgeois is about to leave the historical stage. In its place will come the class of productive workers, the working class, that has been up until today oppressed. It is beginning to fulfill its political mission. It is involved in a hard and bitter struggle for political power as it seeks to become part of the national organism. The battle began in the economic realm; it will finish in the political. It is not merely a matter of pay, not only a matter of the number of hours worked in a day-though we may never forget that these are an essential, perhaps even the most significant part of the socialist platform-but it is much more a matter of incorporating a powerful and responsible class in the state, perhaps even to make it the dominant force in the future politics of the Fatherland. The bourgeois does not want to recognize the strength of the working class. Marxism has forced it into a straitjacket that will ruin it. While the working class gradually disintegrates in the Marxist front, bleeding itself dry, the bourgeois and Marxism have agreed on the general lines of capitalism, and see their task now to protect and defend it in various ways, often concealed.
We are socialists because we see the social question as a matter of necessity and justice for the very existence of a state for our people, not a question of cheap pity or insulting sentimentality. The worker has a claim to a living standard that corresponds to what he produces. We have no intention of begging for that right. Incorporating him in the state organism is not only a critical matter for him, but for the whole nation. The question is larger than the eight-hour day. It is a matter of forming a new state consciousness that includes every productive citizen. Since the political powers of the day are neither willing nor able to create such a situation, socialism must be fought for. It is a fighting slogan both inwardly and outwardly. It is aimed domestically at the bourgeois parties and Marxism at the same time, because both are sworn enemies of the coming workers' state. It is directed abroad at all powers that threaten our national existence and thereby the possibility of the coming socialist national state.
Socialism is possible only in a state that is united domestically and free internationally. The bourgeois and Marxism are responsible for failing to reach both goals, domestic unity and international freedom. No matter how national and social these two forces present themselves, they are the sworn enemies of a socialist national state.
We must therefore break both groups politically. The lines of German socialism are sharp, and our path is clear.
We are against the political bourgeois, and for genuine nationalism!
We are against Marxism, but for true socialism!
We are for the first German national state of a socialist nature!
We are for the National Socialist German Workers Party!
That proves nothing but that the author of the article is biased and/or misled. Fascims was formed in opposition to Marxist socialism - Mussolini realized that nationalism rather than the great brotherhood of workers but he still held to socialist doctrines.Here is my favorite sentence from the encyclopedia that should sum it all up for you:
jmverville said:What is an alternative word that could be used? If it is sensible I would gladly use it.
However, every time I make a reference to the Left I do not want to have to read them a dictionary definition.
I am willing to change my terminology if it is offensive to you.
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