Where do you draw the line?

[ikester7579]

Why truth in God's word is important.

The power of God's word is in it's truth. To keep this power flowing from the word of God shall we pick and choose what we like and dislike? And change, add to or omit what we don't like? God never said that his word or his book was a pick and choose type of deal. And what happens when we decide to pick and choose the word of God? We make or own religion and if we push our views upon others and they believe what is said that is not true, then we have made an idol(our thoughts of the way things should be) for idol worship. So let's see a few examples of what happens when the word of God is changed.

1) There are some people who believe that there is no Hell. That a loving God would not be so cruel as to throw His people in such a tormenting place. I wish that were true. But lets see what happens when Hell is eliminated.

a) There would be no place for those to go who do bad things. Do you want killers, murders, child molesters etc... in Heaven with you? That's exactly what you get when there's no Hell. Where else would they go?

b) No Hell also means No Devil.

c) No Hell also means that one of the judgement thrones would be eliminated. The Great White Throne of Judgement.

d) It would also mean that Jesus went to the cross for nothing. If there is no Hell, then why die to keep us out of it?

e) No reason for salvation. If you can't go to Hell then why have savation?

f) No reason for the son of God to come to earth and teach and do all the things he did.

g) And since there's no reason to come to earth, then there would be no deciples.

h) All things that were fortold about Christ in the old testament now become untrue.



i) Most of the new testament becomes void, because Christ would now have no reason to come to save us. etc......

Basically, God's word becomes worthless with the removal of this one thing. The one place most would not want to go, Hell.
And it's the same way when 6 day creation is removed or changed. God's word again becomes worthless. Because his power to create is made worthless.
I recently went to go see a movie that was supposed to stick to the scriptures. The movie was: "The gospel according to John". It was the worst 8 bucks I ever spent. The movie starts out great. You think: wow, I can really learn something here. But as the movie progresses it becomes very apparent that it is more into changing, omitting and adding to the word of God. Here are a few examples.

1) When Jesus put mud in the eye of the blind man. How many times did he say go and wash his face? 7 times. In the movie, how many times he was to wash was left out. 7 is the perfect number of God.

2) Where was the first time Jesus shed blood? In the garden where he prayed to the Father(God) and sweated great drops of blood. In the movie his first place to shed blood was in front of Pilot. When one of Pilot's gaurds hit him for answering with an attitude. Which is not in God's word. Why is this important? The first sin was committed in a garden, so the first blood shed to cover it had to be in a garden also.

3) The movie showed Jesus preaching in front of the temple(church). While preaching he says: Men are Gods! When did we take the place of God?

4) At the last supper, did a woman dine with the deciples? In the movie there was a women who did. Also this women became one of the followers(just like a deciple) and followed them and listened to what Jesus had to say. At that time in history, women were not allowed to dine with the men. Not only did this change the word of God, but they might as well changed history also.

5) When Jesus rose from the dead and Mary went to see his tomb on the third day and found it open. Jesus appeared to her and as she sought to hug his neck He said: Do not touch me because I have yet to accend to the father to be sactified. In the movie she touch him and he said: Do not hold onto me woman, for I have not acended to the father.

6) When the deciples went to the tomb they found Jesus not there. They also found his prayer cloth folded. In the movie the they said his cloth was rolled up. This has a meaning to it. There is a special way that the Jewish people folded this cloth. The Romans soldiers would not known how to do this. It was a sign left by Christ that he had risen and that no one had stolen his body.

7) When Jesus appeared to his deciples, he was telling them about sin. In the movie he said to the deciples: If you do not forgive sin, then it is not forgiven. When did we get the power to forgive sin? Here again, this denies why Christ went to the cross. We ask to have our sins fogiven by God. We cannot forgive sin.

8) In the movie it shows where Christ and his deciples, which now include a woman, go into a cave to hear Him teach some more? Christ going into a cave is not in the word of God.

9) When the soldiers came to get Christ. Peter drew his sword and cut the ear off of one of them. Jesus took the ear and put it back on and it was healed. In the movie the ear was cut off but the rest was never done or spoke of. This denies one of Jesus's miracles. etc...

After seeing all this I figured out that this was a well thought out movie that set out to discredit the word of God. Now I know some of you are saying to yourself: It's only a movie! So where is the line drawn when it comes to changing the word of God? Just let anyone change it when they fill like it? What if a new Christian would have seen that movie and believed a lot of what they saw? He would be believing in a lie would he not? Is this a good way to start out?

Denying why Christ came to this world makes God's word worthless, and that's exactly what this movie tried to do.

I wrote this so that those who seek to know truth in God know that truth only exists where God's power is. And God's power is in his truth so anyone who denies or changes it is not telling the truth. It does not matter what someone may say about things in the word of God not being checkable, things missing, or things written by man so they cannot be of God etc... All of these are "ploys" to destroy the word of God just like that movie I spoke of. Most people who say these things don't even know what there saying about God when these things are said. But they are said because they have become a good excuse for them not to hear the word of God and to shut up any Christian that would approach them with it. My response to those who would say those things about God's word is: I'm sorry you feel that way about God and his word. That a God that created the whole universe would be to weak to keep his word true. I will pray that your eyes will be open to the truth.

So when it comes to sticking to the truth of God's word, where do you draw the line?

 

[Bushido216]

What does this have to do with Creation Science or Theistic Evolution?

 

[ikester7579]

What does this have to do with Creation Science or Theistic Evolution?

When you take the word creation, 6 days or all of Genesis 1 out. It affects the whole of God's word. Because if you do not believe God created then you would have to research all that's in God's word that makes a reference to creation. Then remove it. Then all the results of creation then remove that. In essence, God's word is all connected. To remove what you choose not to believe is to affect God's word from begining to end. And to remove what you choose also denies the power of God's word because you are saying that he was not capable of doing that. Which also makes God not God.

1)Does God have restrictions on his powers to create?
2)If so what are they?
3)And are they determined by mere men?
4)And who would be so inclined with enough power to dictate this?

 

[seebs]

a) There would be no place for those to go who do bad things. Do you want killers, murders, child molesters etc... in Heaven with you?

I am assured that many of them will indeed be there.

How could I want to go to heaven myself, and not accept that other people, who are no worse than me, might also be there?

That's exactly what you get when there's no Hell. Where else would they go?

Thus "annihilationism", the belief (supported by some interpretations) that those who do not attain heaven are destroyed.

The rest of your argument makes some sense; whatever Hell is, there needs to be something roughly like that for the whole story to make any sense.

I do, however, worry about anyone who would imagine that it would be a problem for there to be murderers in Heaven. Should they accept Christ, where else can they go?

And it's the same way when 6 day creation is removed or changed. God's word again becomes worthless. Because his power to create is made worthless.

This, however, is simply false. A God who can make an entire universe, with millions of stars, from elementary particles, is to my eyes much more impressive than one who can make a single world with lights moving around it.

4) At the last supper, did a woman dine with the deciples? In the movie there was a women who did. Also this women became one of the followers(just like a deciple) and followed them and listened to what Jesus had to say. At that time in history, women were not allowed to dine with the men. Not only did this change the word of God, but they might as well changed history also.

I would like to see citations for this claim that "women were not allowed to dine with the men", since I've never seen it before.

6) When the deciples went to the tomb they found Jesus not there. They also found his prayer cloth folded. In the movie the they said his cloth was rolled up. This has a meaning to it. There is a special way that the Jewish people folded this cloth. The Romans soldiers would not known how to do this. It was a sign left by Christ that he had risen and that no one had stolen his body.

I must have missed the verse in the Bible explaining about the folded cloth. Could you point me at it? I would hate to think that this claim was adding to the Bible in some way.

7) When did we get the power to forgive sin?

"And forgive us our tresspasses, as we forgive those who tresspass against us."

Who said that first?

I wrote this so that those who seek to know truth in God know that truth only exists where God's power is. And God's power is in his truth so anyone who denies or changes it is not telling the truth. It does not matter what someone may say about things in the word of God not being checkable, things missing, or things written by man so they cannot be of God etc... All of these are "ploys" to destroy the word of God just like that movie I spoke of.

Wanna see a ploy to destroy the Word? Calling something other than Jesus "the word of God" would be a good way to wreck things completely.

That a God that created the whole universe would be to weak to keep his word true.

Hmm.

So, do you think God is too weak to make the Bible be written only on pages made of icecream? Because I've never seen that the Bible is written on pages made of icecream. Does that mean God's too weak to do that?

Sometimes, when God doesn't do something, we conclude, not that He is weak, but that we do not know better than Him what He should do.

So when it comes to sticking to the truth of God's word, where do you draw the line?

The Word, who is Jesus, is Truth. The way, the truth, and the life.

Okay, great.

The Bible is a book, and is not the Word, and I believe about it something very similar to what the people who settled canon believed about it; it is inerrant on matters of faith and morals, and it will lead us unfailingly to God, and that's about it.

I believe that it is impossible for the truth to lead us astray, and that any time we understand the Bible to contradict the world, we are probably misunderstanding the Bible.

I think it is patently obvious that the Bible is not a manual of scientific facts. (If you disagree, please identify for me a four-legged creature which flies.)

 

[seebs]

1)Does God have restrictions on his powers to create?

I don't know.

2)If so what are they?

If there are any, I suspect they are limitations of logical consistency.

I don't, for instance, think that God is required to create on a specific schedule just to make us feel happy about a book.

3)And are they determined by mere men?

Nope.

4)And who would be so inclined with enough power to dictate this?

Such limitations must be inherent in the nature of God or the nature of creating.

 

[ikester7579]

I don't know.



If there are any, I suspect they are limitations of logical consistency.

I don't, for instance, think that God is required to create on a specific schedule just to make us feel happy about a book.



Nope.



Such limitations must be inherent in the nature of God or the nature of creating.

And what is that nature of creating? See what I'm pointing out is that you seem to think you know everything there is to know about how God created. No one knows except God. So we guess with evolution(what we see) instead of trusting God(which takes faith which is what God said to have). God said: Blessed is he who has not seen but still believes. Which could mean we should not go by what we see because how God had to do it made it look old. And also this could be a test of faith to see who believes what they see and who believes only in God's word.

I'll answer your second post for now. I have been sick with that bad flu that's been going around. So when I feel better I will answer the other. That one will take a little research and I'm not up to it right now.

 

[seebs]

And what is that nature of creating? See what I'm pointing out is that you seem to think you know everything there is to know about how God created.

Quite the contrary! I think I know only a little bit of it, but I trust that the world He created is true and honest, and that by studying it, I can learn about what He did.

No one knows except God. So we guess with evolution(what we see) instead of trusting God(which takes faith which is what God said to have).

The Bible also says that the natural world will reveal God's glory to us.

God said: Blessed is he who has not seen but still believes. Which could mean we should not go by what we see because how God had to do it made it look old.

But it is much more likely that it means exactly what it says, in context; Thomas, who had a hard time trusting, was shown proof, but many people believe without such proof, and they are also blessed.

And also this could be a test of faith to see who believes what they see and who believes only in God's word.

And it could be a test of faith to see who is willing to accept the world God gave us, instead of trying to second-guess him.

Also, once again, the Word is Jesus. The Bible is not the Word.

I'll answer your second post for now. I have been sick with that bad flu that's been going around. So when I feel better I will answer the other. That one will take a little research and I'm not up to it right now.

Okay. Hope you feel better soon! I dunno what it is, half my online friends are sick.

 

[Bushido216]

When you take the word creation, 6 days or all of Genesis 1 out. It affects the whole of God's word. Because if you do not believe God created then you would have to research all that's in God's word that makes a reference to creation. Then remove it. Then all the results of creation then remove that. In essence, God's word is all connected. To remove what you choose not to believe is to affect God's word from begining to end. And to remove what you choose also denies the power of God's word because you are saying that he was not capable of doing that. Which also makes God not God.

1)Does God have restrictions on his powers to create?
2)If so what are they?
3)And are they determined by mere men?
4)And who would be so inclined with enough power to dictate this?

Until you remove the Paluxy tracks page from your website, I will never take you seriously.

 

[seebs]

Until you remove the Paluxy tracks page from your website, I will never take you seriously.

I was going to say you should be more willing to take him seriously, but then I re-read the thread.

"There would be no place for those to go who do bad things. Do you want killers, murders, child molesters etc... in Heaven with you? That's exactly what you get when there's no Hell. Where else would they go?"

I have spent a couple of days trying, and I have been unable to find any way to even approach reconciling this with any variant on Christian doctrine I am aware of. Am I missing something? Is there some variant of Christianity where killers cannot attain salvation, because they're bad people, and we don't want any of that riff-raff in Heaven? If so, who goes to Heaven, exactly, under this teaching?

 

[preston08]

Lies are the work of the devil. At no time is it okay for anyone to change any bit of the word of God, no matter how insignificant.

 

[ikester7579]

I was going to say you should be more willing to take him seriously, but then I re-read the thread.

"There would be no place for those to go who do bad things. Do you want killers, murders, child molesters etc... in Heaven with you? That's exactly what you get when there's no Hell. Where else would they go?"

I have spent a couple of days trying, and I have been unable to find any way to even approach reconciling this with any variant on Christian doctrine I am aware of. Am I missing something? Is there some variant of Christianity where killers cannot attain salvation, because they're bad people, and we don't want any of that riff-raff in Heaven? If so, who goes to Heaven, exactly, under this teaching?

Of those who do not accept Christ and repent for what they have done are the ones who go to hell. I did not include this because I figured everyone knew that. Just so you better understand, just because I believe YEC does not make the truth of God's word not apparent to me. I know that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ our Lord for he said this. So to imply something because it's not there only makes it an opinion of what you might think I was saying. All you needed to do is ask.
Do you need my statement of faith? I will post it, it's really no problem if you do. And I do not have one prepared, though I should because people are gonna start asking.

 

[seebs]

My concern is just that I don't like the implication that murderers and child molestors are not good enough for Heaven. This is pretty much inconsistent with Christian theology as I understand it; my understanding is that none of us are good enough, but that anyone may be forgiven by the grace of God. With that in mind, it seems to me that objecting to murderers in Heaven is pointless; none of us would get there without salvation, and they will get there with it, so, while I am not a murderer, there is no practical sense in which I can claim to be "better" than a murderer.

Anyway, yes, I want all these people in Heaven. I understand that it may be impossible, but that's irrelevant; I still hope for them to be saved.

I just think it's a poor example, because it carries the implication that there are people who are of the wrong sort, and we wouldn't want them in heaven, and this contradicts the core of what Jesus taught. He sought out the people everyone else thought should be excluded.

 

[preston08]

I don't think God cares what sin you commited whether it just be gossiping or killing someone.

If you murder someone, but truly repent and truly are sorry, and ask for forgiveness, you will be forgiven. Remember, God knows everything and will know if the person is being sincere of course.

 

[Bushido216]

Lies are the work of the devil. At no time is it okay for anyone to change any bit of the word of God, no matter how insignificant.

So when we see the light from stars millions of light-years away, we're supposed to just ignore it and say "THE BIBLE SAYS THAT IT HAPPENED SIX THOUSAND YEARS AGO! I'M GOING TO SHUT OFF MY BRAIN NOW!".

Is your faith so weak that you can't accept that maybe, just maybe, Genesis isn't a literal history book?

 

[Sinai]

Is your faith so weak that you can't accept that maybe, just maybe, Genesis isn't a literal history book?

Or that maybe--just maybe--your interpretation of the words set out in Genesis might be in error? Since the words in Genesis were originally written in Hebrew, have you made certain what those Hebrew words actually say--and mean?

 

[preston08]

So when we see the light from stars millions of light-years away, we're supposed to just ignore it and say "THE BIBLE SAYS THAT IT HAPPENED SIX THOUSAND YEARS AGO! I'M GOING TO SHUT OFF MY BRAIN NOW!".

Is your faith so weak that you can't accept that maybe, just maybe, Genesis isn't a literal history book?

Oh I have NO doubt that MUCH of the Bible isn't literal.

I think the days of creation very well might have been the millions of years it took for evolution. Why not right? A million years is like a second to God...why couldn't the 'days' of creation symbolize many many years.


I was saying that you can't change the word of God.. not that you can't look at it a different way. I think a lot of the things in the Bible are not to be taken literally.

 

[lucaspa]

When you take the word creation, 6 days or all of Genesis 1 out. It affects the whole of God's word.

I don't see how, and I have been seriously looking. Besides, Genesis 2:4 already removes the 6 days by saying the heavens and earth were created in one day. And that hasn't affected you at all, has it?

Because if you do not believe God created then you would have to research all that's in God's word that makes a reference to creation.

One more time. The discussion is not about whether God created, but how. Theistic evolutionists believe, as do creationists, that God created. TE's don't accept Biblical literalism for Genesis 1-8 and instead listen to what God is telling us thru His second book -- Creation.

In essence, God's word is all connected.

If that were the case, then why aren't you selling your daughter into slavery or leaving fields fallow every seven years? Most of the laws in the Pentateuch were not repealed by Jesus. You ignore them. IOW, you pick and choose what you will take from the Bible and what you won't. You already do this, and so does every Christian.

To remove what you choose not to believe is to affect God's word from begining to end.

Well then, you are as guilty as you think theistic evolutionists are.

And to remove what you choose also denies the power of God's word because you are saying that he was not capable of doing that.

Not at all. We are saying God was capable of creating as in Genesis 1. We are saying God did not create that way. What creationism does is denies God because it ignores God's second book. Creationism denies that God created because it refuses to accept God's Creation as being from God.

1)Does God have restrictions on his powers to create?
2)If so what are they?

Yes. The parameters of the universe have to be precisely what they are in order for humans to exist. God was restricted in His power to create in that He could not create another type of universe and still have humans in it.

Ikester, this Strong Anthropic Principle is straight creationist dogma. You will find it both at ICR and AiG. Yet the conclusion is that God's power is limited. He cannot make a universe with other than the parameters it has.