Where do people come up with Gog not being Antichrist?

DavidPT · Apr 11, 2023

Jamdoc said:
Moreover, if the other beasts (other empires) have their dominion taken away but are permitted to exist (as nations) it doesn't seem like that'd be end of the millennial kingdom but beginning of it.

My thoughts exactly. Yet some interpreters insist Daniel 7:12 is meaning what happened to the 3 preceding beasts earier on in history. Except that makes zero sense if the context involving verses 9-11 pertain to the end of this age, and also involve the next age, that if what some of these interpreters are alleging about verse 12, how that would be relevant to a context verses 9-11 are involving? Who would care in the end of this age what happened to the previous beasts earlier in history? Why would that matter at this point in time? It wouldn't. It's nonsensical to interpret verse 12 in that manner if verses 9-11 are involving the end of this age and the beginning of the next age.

We know the little horn is cast into the LOF at the time by comparing with Revelation 19:20. But it never says the rest of the beasts are also cast into the LOF at the time. It instead says, during when the beast is cast into the LOF, concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Meaning when? Thousands of years earlier? No. Meaning when the little horn is given to the burning flame. Verse 12 is clearly involving the same time frame verses 9-11 are involving, except some interpreters deny that and insist verse 12 is simply parenthetical, not to be understood as pertaining to the same time frame verse 9-11 are involving.

Revelation 13:1 ¶And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

We know from Daniel 7 which head verse 3 is involving. It is the same head the 10 horns are on since these are only on one head not 7 heads. And if the little horn is involving one of his heads, that means there are still 6 more heads, these maybe being the rest of the beasts involving Daniel 7:12. Just an educated guess, though. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm not.

In light of that, what I find interesting is this.

Ezekiel 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

What is meant by the 6th part? Could it be meaning 6 parts of a 7 headed beast? I have no clue. But it might explain, even though Gog and his multitude end up dead and buried, how there can be a Gog and Magog still existing a thousand years later. Maybe Daniel 7:12, Revelation 13:1-3, and Ezekiel 39:2, to name a few, are key in determining how there can still be a Gog and Magog after Gog and and his multitude are long dead and buried?

What doesn't make sense to me, if Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning a thousand years after Revelation 19:20-21, why is Ezekiel 38-39 silent regarding Revelation 20:7-9? Also what doesn't make sense to me, if instead, if Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning a thousand years after Revelation 19:20-21, and that some of Ezekiel 38-39 is involving Revelation 20:7-9, how does one make sense of that in light of Ezekiel 38:23, for example?

Then there are verses 20 and 22.

Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Some of this appears to be involving the time of the 7th vial.

Revelation 16:17 ¶And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Compare---and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great---with---and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Compare---And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great--with---and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones

Clearly then, nothing in Ezekiel 38 can be involving a thousand years after Christ has returned, the fact the 7th vial isn't involving that period of time, and that Ezekiel 38:20,22, appears to be involving the time of the 7th vial. Then when we look in Ezekiel 39 we see the following.

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done , saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken

Compare that with what is recorded in Revelation 16:17.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done .

And what day is Revelation 16:17 involving? The day of the Lord, which then might explain the day meant per Ezekiel 39:8---this is the day whereof I have spoken. It's not like the Lord never spoke of the day of the Lord prior to this.

Jamdoc · Apr 11, 2023

Michael Collum said:
I read that you're just saying stuff. Thanks for the discussion.

uh, what? I gave scripture, and showed how a new testament apostle referred back to the old testament for a new testament doctrine.
how is that "just saying stuff"?

Jamdoc · Apr 11, 2023

DavidPT said:
My thoughts exactly. Yet some interpreters insist Daniel 7:12 is meaning what happened to the 3 preceding beasts earier on in history. Except that makes zero sense if the context involving verses 9-11 pertain to the end of this age, and also involve the next age, that if what some of these interpreters are alleging about verse 12, how that would be relevant to a context verses 9-11 are involving? Who would care in the end of this age what happened to the previous beasts earlier in history? Why would that matter at this point in time? It wouldn't. It's nonsensical to interpret verse 12 in that manner if verses 9-11 are involving the end of this age and the beginning of the next age.

We know the little horn is cast into the LOF at the time by comparing with Revelation 19:20. But it never says the rest of the beasts are also cast into the LOF at the time. It instead says, during when the beast is cast into the LOF, concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Meaning when? Thousands of years earlier? No. Meaning when the little horn is given to the burning flame. Verse 12 is clearly involving the same time frame verses 9-11 are involving, except some interpreters deny that and insist verse 12 is simply parenthetical, not to be understood as pertaining to the same time frame verse 9-11 are involving.

Revelation 13:1 ¶And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

We know from Daniel 7 which head verse 3 is involving. It is the same head the 10 horns are on since these are only on one head not 7 heads. And if the little horn is involving one of his heads, that means there are still 6 more heads, these maybe being the rest of the beasts involving Daniel 7:12. Just an educated guess, though. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm not.

In light of that, what I find interesting is this.

Ezekiel 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

What is meant by the 6th part? Could it be meaning 6 parts of a 7 headed beast? I have no clue. But it might explain, even though Gog and his multitude end up dead and buried, how there can be a Gog and Magog still existing a thousand years later. Maybe Daniel 7:12, Revelation 13:1-3, and Ezekiel 39:2, to name a few, are key in determining how there can still be a Gog and Magog after Gog and and his multitude are long dead and buried?

What doesn't make sense to me, if Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning a thousand years after Revelation 19:20-21, why is Ezekiel 38-39 silent regarding Revelation 20:7-9? Also what doesn't make sense to me, if instead, if Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning a thousand years after Revelation 19:20-21, and that some of Ezekiel 38-39 is involving Revelation 20:7-9, how does one make sense of that in light of Ezekiel 38:23, for example?

Then there are verses 20 and 22.

Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Some of this appears to be involving the time of the 7th vial.

Revelation 16:17 ¶And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Compare---and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great---with---and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Compare---And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great--with---and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones

Clearly then, nothing in Ezekiel 38 can be involving a thousand years after Christ has returned, the fact the 7th vial isn't involving that period of time, and that Ezekiel 38:20,22, appears to be involving the time of the 7th vial. Then when we look in Ezekiel 39 we see the following.

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done , saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken

Compare that with what is recorded in Revelation 16:17.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done .

And what day is Revelation 16:17 involving? The day of the Lord, which then might explain the day meant per Ezekiel 39:8---this is the day whereof I have spoken. It's not like the Lord never spoke of the day of the Lord prior to this.

Yeah, I saw the parallels with some of the vial judgements in Revelation 16 and is one of the reasons I feel it fits most with the last 3.5 years of this age, it's just Revelation 20 is this anomaly that I don't have an answer for to be quite honest.

and similarly to you, when I read that part of Daniel 7 I realized.. all the teachings that Daniel 7 is about historic empires is wrong, the teaching that it's just a regurgitation of Daniel 2 is wrong but at the same time, Daniel 2 poses something that most people have wrong as well.

When the stone cut without human hands falls on the statue's feet, it destroys the whole statue all at once, not gradually over time, and it does not destroy things in the past, and it makes me think of Revelation 17:11.. the 8th king is of the seven, most people think that means he's one of the 7, and they think.. Roman.
and I think the final beast, could be of multiple, like, there could be some European to it, but also some Babylonian/Persian/and "Greek" empire too. That it's comprised of the 7.

So those former "beasts" are also end times beasts in other words. Daniel was troubled by the vision he had in 7 so it seems to be a different meaning than Daniel 2 which was mostly about historic empires. Daniel 7 I think is about resurgences of those historic empires.
A lot of people think "revived Roman Empire" but I think that that might be part of it but a revived Sunni Caliphate (Ottoman Empire, which would be the "Javan" or "Greek" part rather than what we think of as "Greece" in Europe today), a Shi'ite Caliphate centered in Persia, and a Southern Sunni competitor centered in Saudi Arabia that would be "Babylon", basically the Sunni Arab world that does NOT accept the Turkish Caliph as the leader of the Islamic world (and would then be "King of the South", or Egypt could be "King of the South")

I look at historical "fulfillments" of Daniel 7, 8, and 11 to be foreshadows, but think it could possibly repeat but in a truer fashion in the future.

If Turkey tries to revive the Ottoman Empire, Saudi Arabia would oppose it, because of course the Saudis want to be in control of the Islamic world. Then Persia/Iran boasts having the 12th Imam, and starts a Shi'ite Caliphate. What would an Ottoman Sunni Caliph do? Probably attack Iran, fulfilling the He-goat and Ram vision in modern times. I think of something like that being a possibility anyway.. that all the prophecies in Daniel were NOT fulfilled historically but will be totally fulfilled at the end of the age.

The other 3 beasts being allowed to continue just without Dominion in the Millennium suggests that to me.

Douggg · Apr 11, 2023

Jamdoc said:
When the stone cut without human hands falls on the statue's feet, it destroys the whole statue all at once, not gradually over time, and it does not destroy things in the past, and it makes me think of Revelation 17:11.. the 8th king is of the seven, most people think that means he's one of the 7, and they think.. Roman.
and I think the final beast, could be of multiple, like, there could be some European to it, but also some Babylonian/Persian/and "Greek" empire too. That it's comprised of the 7.

The seven kings of Revelation 17:10 are sequential, i.e. not concurrent with each other. Differently, the ten kings are concurrent with each other.

Jamdoc · Apr 11, 2023

Douggg said:
The seven kings of Revelation 17:10 are sequential, i.e. not concurrent with each other. Differently, the ten kings are concurrent with each other.

what I mean is that it seems like the final beast incorporates landmass of 4 previous beasts, Babylonian, Persian, and "Greek", and Roman.
Rather than just being 1.

Douggg · Apr 12, 2023

Jamdoc said:
what I mean is that it seems like the final beast incorporates landmass of 4 previous beasts, Babylonian, Persian, and "Greek", and Roman.
Rather than just being 1.

The final beast is the fourth beast.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The fourth kingdom is the EU, i.e. the Roman Empire in the end times. Following Gog/Magog, the EU will move its armies into the middle east to grab possession of all the oil.

In Revelation 13:1-2 the fourth beast is made up of the composite parts belonging to the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire, and the Greek Empire. Basically signifying that the EU will be occupying all of the territories once held by those three historic empires.

Marilyn C · Apr 12, 2023

Jamdoc said:
Ezekiel 38

I'm failing to see where God ever warned about a "penultimate dictator prior to the 7 year tribulation" that many people's view of Gog and Magog revolves around.

I see warnings about just antichrist in particular.

There is also the finality of the passage, Ezekiel 39:

So according to the Gog/Magog is before the 70th week view.. you have this miraculous victory by God.. which God says His name won't be polluted any more and the heathen would know Him.
But then you turn around and have Antichrist the most blasphemous person to ever exist? Doesn't jive.
There is also language in the passage that is very much like Armageddon, a feast for the carrion birds, and being slain in the mountains and the open plain, along with an Earthquake that seems to be the same one as in Revelation 16.

So my question is... where did this idea of a pretrib Gog and Magog battle come from? From the text itself.. it sounds like Armageddon to me. I know the identifying Magog as Russia and Gog as like, Putin, comes from when the Soviet Union was established, to you know, make our enemies the enemies in the bible.. but
where did the idea that Gog wasn't just.. Antichrist come from?
Someone taught it, because it doesn't come from the text.

Hi Jamdoc,

If you read on further in the chapter you will see -

`Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, "Thus says the Lord God: On the day when my people Israel dwell in safety will you not know it? Then you will come from your place out of the FAR NORTH, you and many peoples with you....` (Ez. 38: 15)

The prophet Joel also speaks of this great power from the FAR NORTH.

`I will remove far from you the NORTHERN ARMY. (Joel 2: 20)

As for the nations knowing it was the Lord who destroyed the northern army, they do not repent but turn against God.

`The rulers take counsel together against the Lord and His anointed, saying, "Let us break their bonds in pieces and cast away their cords from us." (Ps. 2: 2 & 3)

And yes there are some aspects similar to Armageddon, but not exactly. The Gog war is the Northern army while Armageddon is ALL the nations of the world. (Rev. 16: 14 - 16)

The details help us know which.

Marilyn C · Apr 12, 2023

Jamdoc said:
what I mean is that it seems like the final beast incorporates landmass of 4 previous beasts, Babylonian, Persian, and "Greek", and Roman.
Rather than just being 1.

Hi Jamdoc,

Those empires have been judged by God and are gone. If you look at Dan. 7 with contemporary eyes you will know today who has those emblems.

Lion -
Eagle -
Bear -

etc.

Jamdoc · Apr 12, 2023

Marilyn C said:
Hi Jamdoc,

If you read on further in the chapter you will see -

`Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, "Thus says the Lord God: On the day when my people Israel dwell in safety will you not know it? Then you will come from your place out of the FAR NORTH, you and many peoples with you....` (Ez. 38: 15)

The prophet Joel also speaks of this great power from the FAR NORTH.

`I will remove far from you the NORTHERN ARMY. (Joel 2: 20)

As for the nations knowing it was the Lord who destroyed the northern army, they do not repent but turn against God.

`The rulers take counsel together against the Lord and His anointed, saying, "Let us break their bonds in pieces and cast away their cords from us." (Ps. 2: 2 & 3)

And yes there are some aspects similar to Armageddon, but not exactly. The Gog war is the Northern army while Armageddon is ALL the nations of the world. (Rev. 16: 14 - 16)

The details help us know which.

Everything north of Syria was considered the far north.
Togarmah is agreed upon as being in Turkey and it's described as "the uttermost parts of the north"

When it was written, that was considered far north, the known world was a lot smaller. Note God never refers to the "New World" continents in any passages of scripture. the world is centered on Israel and the boundaries of what's described are a lot more finite, going east to Persia, South only to Ethiopia, North basically to Turkey, and west, out to Rome or maybe Spain at the most.
So Beth-Togarmah, being the "uttermost parts of the north" fits in with when it was written, but seems unimpressive in modern standards because it's south of where most western world people live.

Jamdoc · Apr 12, 2023

Douggg said:
The final beast is the fourth beast.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The fourth kingdom is the EU, i.e. the Roman Empire in the end times. Following Gog/Magog, the EU will move its armies into the middle east to grab possession of all the oil.

In Revelation 13,:1-2 the fourth beast is made up of the composite parts belonging to the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire, and the Greek Empire. Basically signifying that the EU will be occupying all of the territories once held by those three historic empires.

Okay I think my question is being answered though not by anyone's post in particular, i think I understand how the "Gog must be someone other than Antichrist" hypothesis began being taught.

People are so fixated on "Antichrist must be Roman" and therefore Gog, being described as "northern" doesn't fit.
Problem is you've put things into a box and when they don't fit together, you have to invent a separate event to force the fit.

Similar to pretribulationism insisting on the rapture and second coming being different events even though in 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Thessalonians 2, Titus 2:13, 1 Corinthians 15, etc, links them together, but it doesn't fit with pretrib doctrine.. so man forced a separation to fit their doctrine.

Okay then, that's what it is.. Gog didn't fit Roman Antichrist and nobody questioned their possible misunderstanding and doctrine of Roman Antichrist, forcing Gog to be someone else.

Got it.
It isn't from scripture at all, it's people's teaching when they can't reconcile scripture so they invent separate events and separate people.

Same as the teaching of Revelation 17 and 18 being 2 different things
Same as the "gap" that people insert between the rapture and the start of the 70th week (even though Luke 17 points it out as the rapture happens the same day as the wrath of God begins using the Days of Noah and the Days of Lot as pictures)

Gregory Thompson · Apr 12, 2023

Jamdoc said:
uh, what? I gave scripture, and showed how a new testament apostle referred back to the old testament for a new testament doctrine.
how is that "just saying stuff"?

I was reading the words and they didn't seem to connect to anything, so when this happens I just need to walk away instead of react to the phenomena.

Douggg · Apr 12, 2023

Jamdoc said:
People are so fixated on "Antichrist must be Roman" and therefore Gog, being described as "northern" doesn't fit.
Problem is you've put things into a box and when they don't fit together, you have to invent a separate event to force the fit.

Not correct. No invention being made.

If you take Ezekiel 39, 21-29, who is speaking in the text ? And who has set his glory amongst the heathen, in verse 21 ?

It is Jesus having returned to this earth.

There are 7 years following the destruction of Gog's army. Then in Ezekiel 39:17-20, Ezekiel is told to prophesy again - and the description in those verses match what is written in Revelation 19:17-18, to take place at Jesus's return.

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Also, the Antichrist must be a Jew. His descent from the Julio-Claudians is also a factor.

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What you have to make up is that Gog confirms a covenant with many for 7 years. But cannot be affirmed from the text of Ezekiel 38-39.

Douggg · Apr 12, 2023

@Jamdoc,

In 1John2:18, them who John was speaking to were already aware that Antichrist is coming. But no-one mentions Gog anywhere in the four gospels. Differently, in John 5:43, Jesus said to the Jews that while they reject Him coming in His Father's name - they will accept another coming in his own name (as the Kiing of Israel, messiah implied).

tranquil · Apr 12, 2023

Jamdoc said:
I see Revelation as being 2 parallel narratives. That is why the 140,000 are mentioned twice, that is why there's 2 "Day of the Lord" type passages, after the 6th seal in Revelation 6, and in Revelation 14:14-20 In Revelation 14 Jesus is specifically on the clouds and in Revelation 6 it's the signs Jesus gave us in Matthew 24, and you have a bunch of unbelievers wailing and mourning and asking to be hidden from the face of someone they don't even believe exists, so I believe it's implied that they see Him on the clouds.

Some people see it as 7 sets of parallels but there's some linking verses that do establish Chronology such as "and after these things"

In my opinion, there are not 2 parallel sets going on, it is 2 cycles. What you are pointing out are the 2 sets, but they are not parallel, they are one after the other.

that is why it is '7' trumpets (7 punishments for disobedience) and 7 bowls of wrath (7 punishments for disobedience) (Leviticus 26:18).

2 happenings of disobedience.

The first occurs shortly before the Trumpets. Daniel 9:26's people of the prince to come and the end of him/ it with a flood (= Revelation 9:5 & Revelation 9:15). Then the next one confirms the covenant at Revelation 10:1 and breaks it at the 7th trumpet.

tranquil · Apr 12, 2023

Douggg said:
tranquil, what started the 70 weeks was Daniel's prayer. It is this simple....

Daniel's prayer...............7 weeks.......to the rebuild command given, then.........................62 weeks........... to messiah and him being cutoff.

Your chart does not show the messiah being cutoff. That should alert you to the error you are making with your chart.

-------------------------------------------

Start over and use a 7 years timeline for the 7yr 70th week. The 7yr 70th week begins when the prince who shall come, the Antichrist, acting out his role as perceived messiah, confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant.

It depends on who the messiah is - that is what you don't understand.

Daniel 9:26 = Revelation 9 where the 'messiah' is the people of the prince to come (= the 6th King of Revelation 17 = the Leopard that is given dominion in Daniel 7:6

Daniel 9:27 = Revelation 10 where the 'messiah' is the 'antichrist' as you think of it. (=the 7th king of Revelation 17 = the Daniel 7 Little Horn & 4th Beast)

the chart I put up refers to Jesus as the messiah in the 70 weeks. Jesus is killing the beast & false prophet at the 7 week marker. The transgression that Daniel is lamenting is their breaking of the covenant at the 7th Trumpet. Why do think that the 'ark of the covenant' is mentioned in Revelation 11:19 (at the 7th Trumpet)? Deuteronomy 31:26 “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, so that it may remain there as a witness against you. 27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you are already rebelling against the LORD while I am still alive, how much more will you rebel after my death! It is a witness against them for breaking the covenant.

Then Satan is imitating coming at the 62 weeks marker as a messiah, then Jesus is killing Gog at the 69 week marker.

You can literally read Revelation 19-21 as a description of the 70 weeks prophecy with Jesus as the messiah.

DavidPT · Apr 12, 2023

Douggg said:
There are 7 years following the destruction of Gog's army. Then in Ezekiel 39:17-20, Ezekiel is told to prophesy again - and the description in those verses match what is written in Revelation 19:17-18, to take place at Jesus's return.

To interpret that in that manner ignores the following.

Ezekiel 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee
even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war

I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you

Are you going to argue that God never said Gog and his multitude shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, to be given unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured?

Are you going to argue that Gog and his multitude fit none of the following? horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war

Do you read all other passages in the OT in the same manner, strictly chronologically? Just because the aftermath involving Gog and his multitude is recorded before Ezekiel 39:17-20, that doesn't mean Ezekiel 39:17-20 is involving something else altogether. Especially when it's involving what God already said He was going to do in verse 4 and 5.

It is not reasonable to apply Ezekiel 39:17-20 to something Ezekiel 38-39 knows nothing about, an alleged 2nd battle 7 years after the aftermath of a first battle. Instead of applying Ezekiel 39:17-20 post the aftermath involving Ezekiel 39:9-16, try applying it prior to the aftermath. That way you are in agreement with the text and are not inventing more battles Ezekiel 38-39 know nothing about.

To demonstrate that you are contradicting even your own view, take Ezekiel 38:20 and Ezekiel 38:22, for example. That is undeniably involving the time of the 7th vial. You apparently have those verses meaning right before the beginning of the 70th week if you have the aftermath pertaining to Ezekiel 39:9-16 spanning the entire 70th week. But guess where you place the vials of wrath if I'm not mistaken? Do you not place them during the time involving the 2nd half of the 70th week?

Assuming I'm not mistaken about that, how then is it not a contradiction to apply the vials of wrath during the 2nd half of the 70th week, then apply Ezekiel 38:20 and Ezekiel 38:22 to right before the beginning of the 70th week, and that these two verses are involving the 7th vial of wrath?

Even though I don't agree any of the vials of wrath fit during the 2nd half of the 70th week, that doesn't matter since it is you who fits the vials of wrath there, and that you are then contradicting that by applying Ezekiel 38:20 and Ezekiel 38:22 to right before the 70th week rather than during the 2nd half of the 70th week where you are applying the vials of wrath during. None of the vials of wrath are meaning before the 70th week nor during the 70th week. They are meaning during the 6th seal. It is no longer the 70th week during the 6th seal.

Great tribulation, the 2nd half of the 70th week, involves persecution of the church. Nothing involving Ezekiel 38-39 is involving persecution of the church since anyone that God is still hiding His face from can't be meaning the church until He is no longer hiding His face from them, and that He has poured His Spirit out on them. He doesn't do that until after He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude since I don't see any other way to read the text then conclude He already does those things before He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude, that He quits hiding His face from them before He executes the judgment in question, that He pours out His Spirit on them before He executes the judgment in question.

tranquil · Apr 12, 2023

Douggg said:
tranquil, what started the 70 weeks was Daniel's prayer. It is this simple....

Daniel's prayer...............7 weeks.......to the rebuild command given, then.........................62 weeks........... to messiah and him being cutoff.

Your chart does not show the messiah being cutoff. That should alert you to the error you are making with your chart.

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Start over and use a 7 years timeline for the 7yr 70th week. The 7yr 70th week begins when the prince who shall come, the Antichrist, acting out his role as perceived messiah, confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Where does the transgression occur? The transgression occurs at the beginning of the 70 weeks.

And, since you are fixated on the covenant, you should be able to see the parallel of Deuteronomy 30:19

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

with the swearing of the oath (confirming the covenant) in Revelation 10 with the mighty angel swearing by heaven & earth (Revelation 10:5-6).

Once the covenant is confirmed, then when they break it 1260 days later, the 7 bowls of wrath are inflicted.

tranquil · Apr 12, 2023

Jamdoc said:
That is a good point and Daniel 7 also has this

So you have the beast slain, the body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. which fits neither Ezekiel 39 where the body is buried, nor Revelation 19, where he is cast alive into the lake of fire.
Moreover, if the other beasts (other empires) have their dominion taken away but are permitted to exist (as nations) it doesn't seem like that'd be end of the millennial kingdom but beginning of it.

Is it perhaps the equation of a kingdom with it's king? Are we talking about the body being slain but the soul thrown alive in the lake of fire? Revelation 19 does not specify the body.

There is also Isaiah 14, which yes, mentions Lucifer, but it is about antichrist.

So this is about the King of Babylon but I'd argue that it's about the king of Babylon the great at the end of the age, not historical Babylon

continuing with the famous verse

So here, this king of Babylon, who is equated to an Angel who fell from grace, so I'd say. Antichrist, here he's buried but it's like not a kingly burial.

So we have mentions of a dictator that is buried, another passage where the beast is slain and then given to the flame, and another that is cast alive into the flame.

The Leopard is given dominion. (Daniel 7:6) Start of the Trumpets on Tishri 15/ Feast of Tabernacles.

The Leopard is killed at the end of 5 months (start of the 6th Trumpet) (start of the 'great tribulation' on the 'winter sabbath' - on Adar 15). The 'other beasts' are the other 3 Leopard kings that are given an extension of life for a 'season and a time'. (Daniel 7:10-11) (The 'Leopards' are the Greeks, the locusts are selling Israel to the Greeks in Joel 3:6). (The Leopard king is the Revelation 17:10 6th king that 'is'.)

Once these 3 remaining Leopard kings are killed, then the 4th Beast takes over the world for a 'time, times, and a half time' (Daniel 7:25).

The King of Babylon is the 7th King (the 7th head, 7th crown on the 7 heads, 10 horns, 7 crowns of the red dragon in Rev 12). This is the Daniel 7 Little Horn, the mighty angel of Revelation 10:1 that is swearing an oath (confirming the covenant) to heaven and earth.

Once the 'time, times, and a half time' (same time-frame as the 2 witnesses 1260 days) are over, the 4th beast is gone. Now read Daniel 7:11-12 again: the 4th beast dies, then the 'other beasts are given an extension of time' : the other beasts are the 'Leopard, Bear, and Lion'. These are the same beasts as in the Beast from the Sea which arrives at the 7th Trumpet.

Jamdoc · Apr 12, 2023

Michael Collum said:
I was reading the words and they didn't seem to connect to anything, so when this happens I just need to walk away instead of react to the phenomena.

Could you not see how Paul was referring back to Zechariah 9 for 1 Thessalonians 4?

Jamdoc · Apr 12, 2023

tranquil said:
In my opinion, there are not 2 parallel sets going on, it is 2 cycles. What you are pointing out are the 2 sets, but they are not parallel, they are one after the other.

that is why it is '7' trumpets (7 punishments for disobedience) and 7 bowls of wrath (7 punishments for disobedience) (Leviticus 26:18).

2 happenings of disobedience.

The first occurs shortly before the Trumpets. Daniel 9:26's people of the prince to come and the end of him/ it with a flood (= Revelation 9:5 & Revelation 9:15). Then the next one confirms the covenant at Revelation 10:1 and breaks it at the 7th trumpet.

So you believe Jesus claims the kingdom at the 7th trumpet and then hands the world back over to Satan so Satan can give it to Antichrist?

Where do people come up with Gog not being Antichrist?

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Pre-tribulation.

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Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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