where do babys go when they die

Andy D · Jul 1, 2004

I havent read all the posts as they seem to be focussing a lot on predestination V freewill...but I believe babies go to heaven. Obviously that is up to God to decide but I heard many Christians in my circle and amongst some of the big names in Christianity stating that they believe this based on events such as....King David when he mourned after losing his child that he had with bathsheeba, believed that the child was now in the presence of God. I not sure of the reference...anyone else heard this argument maybe can give me the reference too. I have no bible search stuff at work hehe.

Asaph · Jul 1, 2004

Andy D said:
I havent read all the posts as they seem to be focussing a lot on predestination V freewill...but I believe babies go to heaven. Obviously that is up to God to decide but I heard many Christians in my circle and amongst some of the big names in Christianity stating that they believe this based on events such as....King David when he mourned after losing his child that he had with bathsheeba, believed that the child was now in the presence of God. I not sure of the reference...anyone else heard this argument maybe can give me the reference too. I have no bible search stuff at work hehe.

You know I came away from it with a different sense though. I remember thinking that David's response was equivalent to saying "OK, that's it. There's nothing I can do now, it's all in God's hands". Sort of like he had petitioned God all he could, and he surrendered to God's will.

Either way, a sad, sad story.

Grace and Peace,
Asaph

Andy D · Jul 1, 2004

Thank you for tha insight Asaph it is good to hear another view that makes a lot of sense I will would like to go and check out the references again myself though...

Asaph · Jul 1, 2004

Sorry, I forgot to put the reference on it for you:

2 Sam 12:19-23
19 When David saw that his servants were whispering, David perceived that the child was dead. Therefore David said to his servants, "Is the child dead?" And they said, "He is dead." 20 So David arose from the ground, washed and anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house; and when he requested, they set food before him, and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, "What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food." 22 And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' 23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."
NKJV

Peace,
Asaph

Asar'el · Jul 1, 2004

Andy D said:
I havent read all the posts as they seem to be focussing a lot on predestination V freewill...but I believe babies go to heaven. Obviously that is up to God to decide but I heard many Christians in my circle and amongst some of the big names in Christianity stating that they believe this based on events such as....King David when he mourned after losing his child that he had with bathsheeba, believed that the child was now in the presence of God. I not sure of the reference...anyone else heard this argument maybe can give me the reference too. I have no bible search stuff at work hehe.

There is no problem in the story of David, since we know David was elect of God - so, his child, despite the sinful conception, is still declared holy; and therefore we can state he would be with the Lord.

My argument is not to do with predestination or free will - rather, with sin and sinless states of children; and the declaration of children as holy or unclean - and if holy and unclean is not a clear indication of heaven or hell, I'm not sure what would be...

Asaph · Jul 1, 2004

Asar'el said:
There is no problem in the story of David, since we know David was elect of God - so, his child, despite the sinful conception, is still declared holy; and therefore we can state he would be with the Lord.

My argument is not to do with predestination or free will - rather, with sin and sinless states of children; and the declaration of children as holy or unclean - and if holy and unclean is not a clear indication of heaven or hell, I'm not sure what would be...

But you have to see Asar'el, that by saying that you are condemming even yourself to hell because you are a sinner, you are not holy, you are unclean. Just because you are my brother and we are both going to heaven does NOT mean you or I are holy. It only means that God has declaired you holy. Who are we to say that God could not say that same thing to every single baby ever born? (or better yet, even unborn) you didn't earn it, I didn't earn it, but we got it brother.

Grace and Peace,
Asaph

Larry · Jul 1, 2004

To Heaven.

Benjammin · Jul 2, 2004

Im answering this just to the op, I have not read since.
My personal belief is that anyone who does not have the mental capacity to choose and believe will not be judged as the rest of us, I do not believe God would condemn them. However, thats what faith is, I know that whatever he does will be just.

Asar'el · Jul 4, 2004

Asaph said:
But you have to see Asar'el, that by saying that you are condemming even yourself to hell because you are a sinner, you are not holy, you are unclean. Just because you are my brother and we are both going to heaven does NOT mean you or I are holy. It only means that God has declaired you holy. Who are we to say that God could not say that same thing to every single baby ever born? (or better yet, even unborn) you didn't earn it, I didn't earn it, but we got it brother.

Grace and Peace,
Asaph

I do indeed know that I would be condemned to hell, brother - because I am a sinner; but the hope I have is exactly in being declared holy, not by my own power, but by the blood of Jesus Christ; and I have God's promise to that. I don't have something that say He says the same thing to every single baby ever born, etc. I do have something to say that, if a husband and wife are both unbelievers their children are called unclean before the Lord. I know I would be very uncomfortable if 'unclean' was the last sentence passed on to me...

As much as people hate the idea of children going to hell, or love the idea that children are innocent, I believe the first is scriptural and the second is just wishful thinking.

We are saved by grace; not because we are innocent; but because Christ has paid for our sins. The idea that children are saved because they have no sin makes the blood of Christ and salvation unnecessary for them - and I don't believe that's correct...

If we are the Lord's, He declares our children holy. Simple enough.

AVBunyan · Jul 4, 2004

Here is my take I admit it is a rough one for two reasons: First Scriptures dont come right out and make it easy for you you gotta dig. Second rough because of my final conclusion, which will cause some here to blow a gasket and strip out your clutch plates.

Lets go and see what the book says:
We know that because of Adam death is passed upon all men Rom. 5:11 - so we all know the 2 yr old (Lets say Jenny) is going to die because of Adam a given.

But it doesnt stop there because Eph. 2:1 our 2 yr old who was dead in trespasses and sins: - So, she is in her sins soif we stopped right now where would Jenny go? She would go to hell like everybody else for we were all born in the same, dead state.

But God is rich in mercy and wont necessarily leave us there. Lets go further. Can Jenny, choose to accept Christ? No, she doesnt understand and she is also dead and according to Rom. 3:1-19 and Matt. 8:22 and II Cor. 4:3 she is blinded and dead to truth so she cant choose God. So where does that leave us? Three options:

1. Popular view not accountable so God in grace takes little Jenny home just not sure could be a principle here and many hope this is so though I like it.

2. God, in grace, saves those whom cannot make that choice because of mental illness, sickness, youth, etc. similar to Take 1 and sounds good and I like this also, but

3. God chose Jenny from before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) and Jenny is safe because it was according to the good pleasure of Gods will (Eph. 1:5). If she were not chosen she would have gone to hell. In other words all were born to die and then go to a lake of fire because of sin and God chose to save some out of mercy.

Now, here is the crux of the matter. If Jenny went to hell because she was born dead in trespasses in sins and God didnt save here would God be wrong? Go ahead and tell me God was wrong. Can God sin and do wrong? Here is where some of you have to face something here regardless of how God worked it out with Jenny (and others) is God still God? I read my Bible and God is perfect, holy, and just and can no nothing other than be perfect, holy, and just because that is His essence.

My take I subscribe to #3 because dead men cant choose God. If #1 were right then that discounts the fact that she was dead in trespasses and sins and by not being able to choose anyway wouldnt make any difference for she was doomed regardless of her choice. The dead in trespasses cancels out her choosing. But if it were # 1 I wouldnt fall apart I just think there are some gaps.

Now, I told you what I think and believe I didnt say you could take that to the bank. Im still studying and praying about the issue.

Now here is where it gets ugly some of you have to come to grips that your choosing God didnt save you. Your belief in the gospel of I Cor. 15:15 didnt regenerate you. Do you know what saved you? Christ saved you because of what He did at Calvary. The thinking today is that that little good spark in you gets fanned by the gospel and you choose God because of that spark of good that is left in you so...You made a choice to get saved. This is where you people who think you can loose it get your bad start. You think because you chose God that you can unchoose God. You started off wrong so your whole Christian life and securities is based upon your choosings in life and have left Gods sovereignty out of it.

So, here is how you get a peace about Jennys fate: You have to trust God and live by faith. This is also takes care of, What about the heathen in Africa?

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Our duty is to be a faithful instrument in the hands of God, pray for them give, them the gospel, and leave the results to God who will do right despite us!

God is going to do right because He cant do wrong because we many times dont understand why God does things doesnt give us the excuse to question God. I know that sounds rough to some of you but you have to start with Gods holiness and your depravity and you will see that you are in a mess with no way out and only then will God show you Christ and his completeness.

I leave you with two Bible descriptions of your state without Christ:

Psa 39:5 Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Do you know what your left with?

John 15:5for without me ye can do nothing.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Flee to Christ, flee to Christ, flee to Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!

May God bless

Asaph · Jul 4, 2004

Asar'el said:
I do indeed know that I would be condemned to hell, brother - because I am a sinner; but the hope I have is exactly in being declared holy, not by my own power, but by the blood of Jesus Christ; and I have God's promise to that. I don't have something that say He says the same thing to every single baby ever born, etc. I do have something to say that, if a husband and wife are both unbelievers their children are called unclean before the Lord. I know I would be very uncomfortable if 'unclean' was the last sentence passed on to me...

As much as people hate the idea of children going to hell, or love the idea that children are innocent, I believe the first is scriptural and the second is just wishful thinking.

We are saved by grace; not because we are innocent; but because Christ has paid for our sins. The idea that children are saved because they have no sin makes the blood of Christ and salvation unnecessary for them - and I don't believe that's correct...

If we are the Lord's, He declares our children holy. Simple enough.

OK.

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Jul 4, 2004

Very interesting AVBunyan. It fits along very well with the Arminian view of foreknowledge. It actually makes good sense Thanks!

Asar'el · Jul 4, 2004

AVBunyan said:
Here is my take I admit it is a rough one for two reasons: First Scriptures dont come right out and make it easy for you you gotta dig. Second rough because of my final conclusion, which will cause some here to blow a gasket and strip out your clutch plates.

Lets go and see what the book says:
We know that because of Adam death is passed upon all men Rom. 5:11 - so we all know the 2 yr old (Lets say Jenny) is going to die because of Adam a given.

But it doesnt stop there because Eph. 2:1 our 2 yr old who was dead in trespasses and sins: - So, she is in her sins soif we stopped right now where would Jenny go? She would go to hell like everybody else for we were all born in the same, dead state.

But God is rich in mercy and wont necessarily leave us there. Lets go further. Can Jenny, choose to accept Christ? No, she doesnt understand and she is also dead and according to Rom. 3:1-19 and Matt. 8:22 and II Cor. 4:3 she is blinded and dead to truth so she cant choose God. So where does that leave us? Three options:

1. Popular view not accountable so God in grace takes little Jenny home just not sure could be a principle here and many hope this is so though I like it.

2. God, in grace, saves those whom cannot make that choice because of mental illness, sickness, youth, etc. similar to Take 1 and sounds good and I like this also, but

3. God chose Jenny from before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) and Jenny is safe because it was according to the good pleasure of Gods will (Eph. 1:5). If she were not chosen she would have gone to hell. In other words all were born to die and then go to a lake of fire because of sin and God chose to save some out of mercy.

I think you're missing the text I've used, making choice number 4:

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Just as the sin of Adam is passed on to all, God is pleased to declare the children of the elect Holy - even when one parent is an unbeliever! Those of unbelievers, however ... are declared unclean. So, for Jenny, in addition to Adam and Eve, we need to know who her parents were...

AVBunyan said:
Now, here is the crux of the matter. If Jenny went to hell because she was born dead in trespasses in sins and God didnt save here would God be wrong? Go ahead and tell me God was wrong.

No, God is never wrong; it is just for all to go to Hell, for all have sinned in Adam. And it is the mercy of God to save some from that just punishment, and raise them instead to highest honors - to be called the Children of God.

AVBunyan said:
Can God sin and do wrong? Here is where some of you have to face something here regardless of how God worked it out with Jenny (and others) is God still God? I read my Bible and God is perfect, holy, and just and can no nothing other than be perfect, holy, and just because that is His essence.

My take I subscribe to #3 because dead men cant choose God. If #1 were right then that discounts the fact that she was dead in trespasses and sins and by not being able to choose anyway wouldnt make any difference for she was doomed regardless of her choice. The dead in trespasses cancels out her choosing. But if it were # 1 I wouldnt fall apart I just think there are some gaps.

I'm not sure what your take is ... if you're saying Jenny can end up in heaven or in hell, and both are just, I agree with you; and I believe the text shows how. If you are saying God has chosen / predestinated all children to salvation... I have not found the scriptures to teach that...

AVBunyan said:
Now, I told you what I think and believe I didnt say you could take that to the bank. Im still studying and praying about the issue.

Now here is where it gets ugly some of you have to come to grips that your choosing God didnt save you. Your belief in the gospel of I Cor. 15:15 didnt regenerate you. Do you know what saved you? Christ saved you because of what He did at Calvary. The thinking today is that that little good spark in you gets fanned by the gospel and you choose God because of that spark of good that is left in you so...You made a choice to get saved. This is where you people who think you can loose it get your bad start. You think because you chose God that you can unchoose God. You started off wrong so your whole Christian life and securities is based upon your choosings in life and have left Gods sovereignty out of it.

I'm one of those happy to leave the 'choosing' to God...

AVBunyan said:
So, here is how you get a peace about Jennys fate: You have to trust God and live by faith. This is also takes care of, What about the heathen in Africa?

I do, and I do. But I also find the Scripture seems clear on the issue, and I see no need to cover it up, because some find the idea of children in hell unpleasant - as if men and women in hell is something less of a tragedy...

AVBunyan said:
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Our duty is to be a faithful instrument in the hands of God, pray for them give, them the gospel, and leave the results to God who will do right despite us!

God is going to do right because He cant do wrong because we many times dont understand why God does things doesnt give us the excuse to question God. I know that sounds rough to some of you but you have to start with Gods holiness and your depravity and you will see that you are in a mess with no way out and only then will God show you Christ and his completeness.

I leave you with two Bible descriptions of your state without Christ:

Psa 39:5 Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Do you know what your left with?

John 15:5for without me ye can do nothing.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Flee to Christ, flee to Christ, flee to Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!

May God bless

Amen! All that last I agree with - but not sure what it's meant to add to the question of the thread.

Hell is one of the most controversial subjects of the gospel; many people fear to mention it, lest they be called 'scare mongers', and the Christian religion labeled a 'fear religion'; and it is for that reason that Christians are often assaulted with questions about Hell - because they tend to get defensive about it... Nevertheless, I believe our duty is to declare the entire gospel; indeed, the greatest news is that there is salvation in Christ Jesus - but those that hear should also know, salvation from what?

When people start to talk of innocents, they mean innocent in the eyes of man; the passages quoted do indeed show what all mankind's innocency and righteousness is really like ...

stillblessed · Jul 17, 2004

i believe they go to heaven, because they do not know sin yet. each one of us as a child,ws different as far as age of accountability.,when we knew right from wrong. i knew it at an early age of about 7.

where do babys go when they die

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