Where did your god get his powers?

quatona said:

Exactly my point: We would have to demonstrate our power by using means that they understand as powerful. And, getting back to your analogy, unless god demonstrates his power to us in a way that makes us discern him as more powerful ("power", as we understand it), we can not only be not expected to tell how god got so powerful, but we can´t even be expected to tell that he is powerful, in the first place.

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jmverville said:

That is interesting, I see what you are saying.

We need a criteria of power, and until we have a criteria of power and have had it demonstrated a lot ofquestions are moot.

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I think the strength of nature and the fact that a Tsunami killed over 200,000 people in 2004 (almost 2005) is a pretty powerful argument of the power of His Creation -- though this is not to say that He caused it, rather to say the humility we must have when we can so easily be destroyed by His Own.

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MoonlessNight said:

I do find it interesting though, that the thread claims that the traditional answer to the question (that God is eternal and moreso eternally perfect) is considered an "excuse" with no explanation as to why. Perhaps because it is a legitimate answer?

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quatona said:

Some thoughts:
1. I find it somewhat odd that you discern destructive forces as the hallmark of god´s power.

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2. We often see negative, destructive events ascribed exactly to god´s personified opponent, Satan. I don´t seem to see the standards by which you ascribe what to whom and accept it as a demonstration of whose power.

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3. If you make the distinction between god´s power and the power of his creation (which you obviously make in order to not make god look like a destructive monster): every power discernable in our world would have to be identified as the power of his creation, including genocide, mass murder, rape, you name it - i.e. including the negative, destructive power humans exert over others. I´m not sure you want to go there.

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4. If making this distinction the way you make it, it means conceptualizing the power of his creation as somewhat independent of the power of god himself, as taking its own course, possibly even against god´s will. I´m not sure you really want to go there, either.

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5. Concerning humility in view of the power of nature: I don´t see how assuming a god to be nature´s creator makes any difference whatsoever.

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jmverville said:

I view destructive force as power, as I do constructive force... But how amazing it is that so much was lost and so many lives were pulled into the depths of the Ocean ont hat day. People on three different continents died as a result of the Tsunami.

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I think that Satan has little role in the events of the world.

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No, I believe that God is a non-interventionist; He is like Switzlerland. Why?

Because life is a test, and He would like to see what human beings do for each other, see what sort of people we are.

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Destruction and death in this life is worthless... In fact, this life's pleasure and pain is ultimately irrelavent compared to the amount we face in Eternity. I feel that what happens here is only relavent on the level of how good our behavior was.

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No, it is personless power and a personless creation.

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I am not sure what this means.

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quatona said:

Yes, praise the Lord and His demonstrations of power.

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While we are talking about what we think: I don´t think that neither god nor satan exist, in the first place.

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You also seem to think that god is not omniscient.

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Then these things are not a demonstration of that power that you ascribe to your god.

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What?

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It means that humility in view of nature´s power can and does exist independently of belief in a god and his power.

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quatona said:

Is this in response to me?

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jmverville said:

The Lord does not need to demonstrate.

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Your choice.

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I think that He can do anything.

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Nature is His demonstration of power.

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Sounds accurate. I do not contest that.

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loudatheist101 said:

jmverville said:

The Atheist: Ok, so why won't he make it an instict to believe in God? Why does life need to be some random test about loving a god...

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You should check out the Bible on that one...

God created us in an environment where life was not a test; He gave us everything and we had every reason to be entirely content, to be sheltered from evil by God for all eternity. But then we chose, personally, that we wanted to know about good and evil, so we ate of the true of knowledge of good and evil, and from that point on we have been exposed to both.

It was essentially the choice of mankind to make it a test. Originally, it was dwelling in paradise.

"Nature is His demonstration of power."

The Atheist: Greeks used to say nature is demonstration of Zues' power.

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They were only wrong in who they attributed it to. Most human beings recognize the necessity of a Creator -- we see the creator-created relationship almost everywhere in nature, everything having a cause.

Until Jesus Christ brought Christianity to the Gentiles, coming as the Messiah, they were grossly misinformed.

"Sounds accurate. I do not contest that."[/QUOTE

The Atheist: Sweet.

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Yeah, for sure -- anyoen can see the power of Nature, and it does not take a Believer to truly admire it.

quatona said:

..., unless god wants to be understood as being powerful. (I think we had agreed on that previously).

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I think He wants to be recognized for His beautiful creations and what He had done for us (Created us).

Either you have misread, or you don´t know what "omnisicient" means, or you try to evade the point.

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To me, being all powerful and being capable of doing anythign means omniscience.

Then the distinction between god´s power and nature´s power that was crucial to your argument makes no sense.

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Nature comes from God, was designed by God, and infused with its' life by God.

It still makes good sense to me.

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jmverville said:

I think He wants to be recognized for His beautiful creations and what He had done for us (Created us).

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To me, being all powerful and being capable of doing anythign means omniscience.

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Nature comes from God, was designed by God, and infused with its' life by God.

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