Where did the Church first go wrong?

Guide To The Bible · Feb 10, 2017

Paul Yohannan said:
No, because your OP was predicated on the idea of the casting of lots as leading to successive generations of failed leadership, based on the experience of the Papacy, but we have refuted that on the grounds that the Eastern churches never had the problems the Roman church had,

Every denomination has a problem by virtue of setting up a them and us man made hierarchy.

and the Popes of Rome were not elected in that manner.

I've accepted that and is not the OP

St. Peter was nowhere instructed by our Lord to not appoint a replacement for Judas Iscariot immediately.

So if a naughty child says that they were not told to not burn the house down does that make it alright then?

Nothing in the Bible says that St. Paul was supposed to hold the office of St. Matthias.The two had different roles.

So Jesus selecting Paul in such spectacular fashion means nothing to you then?

The conversion of St. Paul came much later

No it was within weeks. And this is off OP.

; St. Paul was persecuting the Church which by that time was well established, thanks to the work of the Twelve Apostles and their Deacons, including St. Matthias.

No way, it was 3000+ strong only because of the work of the Holy Spirit.

Had St. Matthias not been appointed, it is entirely possible that the other eleven Apostles would not have been able to organize the church on the scale that they did,

Again it was the work of the Holy Spirit that made everything happen. (Do you even have the Holy Spirit?)

that Saul would not have persecuted them, and thus been converted on the road to Damascus to become the Apostle to the Gentiles.

Well Jesus did this but then that doesn't seem to mean anything to you.

The "on-going leadership team" you complain about wrote the Bible. Or rather the New Testament.

No the Apostles wrote the NT. The ongoing team muddled through.

St. Peter and the other ten surviving Disciples did not have a New Testament. They had merely their own memory of our Lord and his instructions.

Their actions, in ordaining St. Matthias, in ordaining the seven deacons, in ordaining St. Paul, and the other Seventy Apostles, and the Evangelists Mark and Luke, allowed for the words and actions of our Lord and His apostles to be recorded for posterity in the New Testament.

That same leadership team preserved the New Testament by making copies of it over the following centuries.

There's plenty of Protestant Bible translators who did just a good a job too. William Tyndale for example is probably the greatest of them all; Protestant.

And when, in the fourth century, due to the problem of the proliferation of Gnostic apocrypha, the decisions had to be made about which books were the authentic writings of the Apostles, and which ones were not, the same leadership team established by St. Peter and the other ten disciples, when they ordained St. Matthias, made the neccessary decisions, under the guidance of the Spirit,

The Holy Spirit hadn't been given as I keep pointing out.

about which books were to be included in the Bible as inspired Scripture, and which ones were to be rejected.

So without that leadership team, that you object to, you would not have the Bible. You would simply have the Old Testament.

Rubbish, with or with out the Catholic Church the Bible would have come about. And again off OP.

Dave-W · Feb 10, 2017

readyfor mysavior said:
I never hear d of that.

That is as I said: "Most Christians have never heard of Bar Kochba."

Albion · Feb 10, 2017

DrBubbaLove said:
Albion, if you want to discuss the claim, happy do it elsewhere though admittedly it does not interest me that much any more.

I don't want to discuss it. I offered some information and it was not intended to start a lengthy or heated debate. But, as often happens, there usually are other posters who insist upon challenging every comma if they read something that is not supportive of their own views.

Thursday · Feb 10, 2017

Albion said:
No one said he was. He didn't start any church, either. The church in Britain is older than the Church of Rome.

.

Blatant lies and historical revisionism.

Too funny. No wonder you can't get anything right about Church history given your brainwashed opinions.

Thursday · Feb 10, 2017

Guide To The Bible said:
That is not the Church. The Church is every believer in Christ who will be saved.

The Chruch Jesus started has leaders and authority. It does not teach contradictions.

Do protestants have a leader? Do protestant Churches teach multiple contradictory doctrines?

Guide To The Bible · Feb 10, 2017

Thursday said:
The Chruch Jesus started has leaders and authority. It does not teach contradictions.

Do protestants have a leader? Do protestant Churches teach multiple contradictory doctrines?

Micah 4:4
Everyone will sit under their own vine and under their own fig tree, and no one will make them afraid, for the LORD Almighty has spoken.

Albion · Feb 10, 2017

Thursday said:
Blatant lies and historical revisionism.

Feel better now?

Wolf_Says · Feb 10, 2017

Guide To The Bible said:
You are trying to skillfully deflect the argument but I will bring it back to the OP (original point). You say there is no link between the election of St. Matthias and Catholic Church but there clearly is. If Peter had of simply waited as instructed and just let Jesus choose Paul in His own good time. AND then continued to let Jesus work through the Church without feeling the need to create an ongoing leadership team, then non of the denominational fighting and arguing and corruption that has lead to some of the most disgusting and evil acts ever carried out by so called Christians would never have happened, with in what non-Christians think of as the Church. I could list some for you but I find it too sickening to do so. The problem is that people feel the need for something physical that they can cling onto, I'm no different in this respect but the only physical thing I believe we need as Christians is the Bible. (and clothes, food, housing, schools, hospitals, etc but not the church in it current form). What I am irked about I suppose is poor leadership. Like when Peter decide it was a good idea to draw lots.

Please provide to me the verse that you keep referring to that states that Jesus told them to wait.

You have not provided that to me, as far as I am aware, and I cannot even begging to fully answer the question if I do not have all the information.

Please provide that to me.

In other words, I am back, and I am ready to rumble~~!!! (insert WWE announcer voice)

Wolf_Says · Feb 10, 2017

Guide To The Bible said:
Rubbish, with or with out the Catholic Church the Bible would have come about. And again off OP.

Now of course this depends on what Apostolic Church you ask, but no, without the ECF and the Early Church (which I will say is the Catholic Church), there would be no Bible as we know of it today.

That is a historical fact.

Thursday · Feb 10, 2017

Guide To The Bible said:
Micah 4:4
Everyone will sit under their own vine and under their own fig tree, and no one will make them afraid, for the LORD Almighty has spoken.

???

What does that have to do with this?

Matt 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

or this:

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

or this:

1 Tim 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

or this:

2 Thes 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

or this:

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

or this:

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Albion · Feb 10, 2017

Thursday said:
Do protestants have a leader? Do protestant Churches teach multiple contradictory doctrines?

If you ask if a thousand different churches each have leaders and doctrines, aren't you automatically saying that they have more than one leader, etc.? We could also ask if catholic churches (Roman C, EO, Old Catholic, Armenian, etc.) have leaders. Yes, of course! And so what does that prove?

Thursday · Feb 10, 2017

Albion said:
If you ask if a thousand different churches each have leaders and doctrines, aren't you automatically saying that they have more than one leader, etc.? We could also ask if catholic churches (Roman C, EO, Old Catholic, Armenian, etc.) have leaders. Yes, of course! And so what does that prove?

Jesus only started one Church, and it wasn't King Henry who was chosen to establish it.

The Church Jesus started teaches a single doctrine, not multiple contradictory doctrines like protestantism.

Jesus gave the Church leaders and these leaders appointed successors. The Catholic Church is led by these successors.

Albion · Feb 10, 2017

Wolf_Says said:
Please provide to me the verse that you keep referring to that states that Jesus told them to wait.

That was in the first part of the OP (post 1 of this thread).

Wolf_Says · Feb 10, 2017

Albion said:
That was in the first part of the OP (post 1 of this thread).

Oh okay, so he updated it. It wasn't like that when I was in this thread before. Thanks for pointing that out.

Guide To The Bible · Feb 10, 2017

Wolf_Says said:
Please provide to me the verse that you keep referring to that states that Jesus told them to wait.

You have not provided that to me, as far as I am aware, and I cannot even begging to fully answer the question if I do not have all the information.

Please provide that to me.

In other words, I am back, and I am ready to rumble~~!!! (insert WWE announcer voice)

You only need read the OP.

Does that count as a submission point?

Albion · Feb 10, 2017

Thursday said:
Jesus only started one Church

Yeh, that's the church usually called Christian.

and it wasn't King Henry who was chosen to establish it.

Quite right. As noted before, Henry didn't start any church. He was, BTW, a Catholic until his dying day and was never declared a heretic by the Church of Rome.

The Church Jesus started teaches a single doctrine

Really? Like Christ is the Son of God, He was born of a Virgin, Faith cometh by hearing, etc. Those seem to be more than "a single doctrine." LOL

Jesus gave the Church leaders and these leaders appointed successors. The Catholic Church is led by these successors.

Yes, and so are the Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Ethiopian, Old Catholic, some Lutheran and certain other denominations or communions as well.

Thanks for asking.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Feb 10, 2017

They seemed to have gotten their stride on by the second election. Rather than drawing lots for those who had been with Jesus as Judas had, they now focused on Holy Spirit leading. (which is the biblical qualification for an approved preacher is to reproduce life)

Acts 1:3 Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business;

Rick Otto · Feb 10, 2017

Light of the East said:
Okay.....but look at our conversation. It turned in the direction of defining the Church, which I responded to. And in this thread, there have been others who have stated that the authority to make such decisions, no matter what manner they are made in, has been given to the bishops of the Church by Christ Himself. That is why we are defending the Church and why I have said that you need to become Catholic (or Orthodox).

Sounds like you are defending a marriage that is in a state of separation.
Non starter.

Rick Otto · Feb 10, 2017

Albion said:
Yeh, that's the church usually called Christian.
Quite right. As noted before, Henry didn't start any church. He was, BTW, a Catholic until his dying day and was never declared a heretic by the Church of Rome.
.

Wow. I didn't know I had so much in common with a king of England!

Guide To The Bible · Feb 10, 2017

Thursday said:
???

What does that have to do with this?

It's an allusion to how we'll live under Christ's rule when he returns, just as how we should live now. As in we are not to let other lord it over us and visa versa.

Matt 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

That's what i'm doing to you and I have had other's here back me up so don't think I'm alone on this.

or this:

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Same answer.

or this:

1 Tim 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

That' what I'm doing.

or this:

2 Thes 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

Jesus taught us not to hold to traditions but that's for another debate.

or this:

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

And nothing happened, the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost as evidenced by all the gifts displayed.

or this:

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

We've done this so many times already. Jesus is the Cornerstone which the apostles are placed next to and upon which the Church is built. The Church is on Jesus not Peter!

Where did the Church first go wrong?

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