Where did I go wrong???

Stephan2050 · Apr 6, 2012

LilLamb219 said:
I would think that would go in line with what Jesus said when he talked about lustful thoughts being sinful. Matthew 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

But if the point that was to be made to the child was unless you stop the sin you are going to Hell. If that is correct than, thanks to Victoria Secret...looks like I am doomed.

Sophrosyne · Apr 6, 2012

I have heard people before say "believe in Jesus' or God and then say something that contradicts the bible. I would suggest you approach it like this:
Ask the child if they believe you:
1)would they do as you say if you told them to do something you should do?
2)likewise if they handed you a note telling you what to do
3)likewise if they told a friend that they trusted completely to write it down to tell you what to do and gave it to you on paper.
4)in the end if they told you through the writing of a book what to do would ignoring what was written in the book equate to believing in them or not?
Then show them scriptures in the bible and ask them if the truly believe (in) Jesus if they refuse to follow directions.
You could then ask them if you would ignore the bible it is like you ignoring what advice I give you but telling me that you believe in me.

LilLamb219 · Apr 6, 2012

Stephan2050 said:
But if the point that was to be made to the child was unless you stop the sin you are going to Hell. If that is correct than, thanks to Victoria Secret...looks like I am doomed.

That's a law/gospel issue right there. Properly distinguishing between Law and Gospel and knowing when repentance comes into play is extremely important!

Stephan2050 · Apr 8, 2012

Thats what you give to a Jr High student struggling with Homosexuality. Properly dstinguish between Law and Gospel or your going to Hell?

Aibrean · Apr 8, 2012

Stephan2050 said:
Thats what you give to a Jr High student struggling with Homosexuality. Properly dstinguish between Law and Gospel or your going to Hell?

Without acknowledgement of the sin and moving forward with repentance, of course they will be doomed. The approach shouldn't be any more different than someone struggling with another "public" sin. Would you tell an alcoholic to just keep up with drinking?

I would hardly call a high school student a child.

Lutheran021342 · Apr 8, 2012

Aibrean said:
I would hardly call a high school student a child.

While I would hardly call a high school student a child, the reasoning part of human brain does not fully develop until a person reaches 21 to 25 depending on the individual and gender. A high school student is hardly prepared to make fully thought out decisions about differentiations, especially if they have any exposure to society.
The distinction between Law and Gospel is something many adults struggle with. A properly socialized youth with have disagreements with the church theology at some point, the key (to me) is embedding the faith in them enough that they return when they realize the error in their ways rather than driving them away by trying to force them to see when they are most stubborn.

PreachersWife2004 · Apr 9, 2012

Lutheran021342 said:
While I would hardly call a high school student a child, the reasoning part of human brain does not fully develop until a person reaches 21 to 25 depending on the individual and gender. A high school student is hardly prepared to make fully thought out decisions about differentiations, especially if they have any exposure to society.
The distinction between Law and Gospel is something many adults struggle with. A properly socialized youth with have disagreements with the church theology at some point, the key (to me) is embedding the faith in them enough that they return when they realize the error in their ways rather than driving them away by trying to force them to see when they are most stubborn.

And this is why I believe we're failing youths at an alarming rate.

You MUST have Law and Gospel. You cannot have just one or the other. And the idea that teens must somehow have a disagreement with church theology just because they're teens is ludicrous. A properly catechized student will certainly understand the difference between Law and Gospel. In fact, I believe it's an easy concept to understand. Where it is difficult is actually practicing it, as you have pointed out. Too many people don't want to use the Law.

In order for someone to understand they need a savior, they need to know what they're being saved from. You can't talk about Christ's love for us without talking about the eternal suffering He saved us from.

Studeclunker · Apr 9, 2012

Lutheran021342 said:
While I would hardly call a high school student a child, the reasoning part of human brain does not fully develop until a person reaches 21 to 25 depending on the individual and gender. A high school student is hardly prepared to make fully thought out decisions about differentiations, especially if they have any exposure to society.
The distinction between Law and Gospel is something many adults struggle with. A properly socialized youth with have disagreements with the church theology at some point, the key (to me) is embedding the faith in them enough that they return when they realize the error in their ways rather than driving them away by trying to force them to see when they are most stubborn.

PreachersWife2004 said:
And this is why I believe we're failing youths at an alarming rate.

You MUST have Law and Gospel. You cannot have just one or the other. And the idea that teens must somehow have a disagreement with church theology just because they're teens is ludicrous. A properly catechized student will certainly understand the difference between Law and Gospel. In fact, I believe it's an easy concept to understand. Where it is difficult is actually practicing it, as you have pointed out. Too many people don't want to use the Law.

In order for someone to understand they need a savior, they need to know what they're being saved from. You can't talk about Christ's love for us without talking about the eternal suffering He saved us from.

Actually, I think both of these are very well said. However, if one finds their teenager strongly disagreeing with some important point in Scripture/theology, one can find their catechizing of said teenager was weak at said point. Discussion without confrontation can often help. Patience (sometimes that of a 'saint') is also important.

Stephan2050 · Apr 10, 2012

I believe that the only way to speak truth into the life of a struggling teen is to first show them you love them. Jesus NEVER preached hell to the seekers (it was alway reserved for the Church establishment). What a great opportunity to be able to have long and open dialogue with youth during this fragile time.

LilLamb219 · Apr 10, 2012

Stephan2050 said:
I believe that the only way to speak truth into the life of a struggling teen is to first show them you love them. Jesus NEVER preached hell to the seekers (it was alway reserved for the Church establishment). What a great opportunity to be able to have long and open dialogue with youth during this fragile time.

Jesus knew when to properly apply Law and Gospel. I thought this thread was dealing with kids in confirmation class...meaning they aren't seekers, they're already Christians.

Aibrean · Apr 11, 2012

Stephan2050 said:
I believe that the only way to speak truth into the life of a struggling teen is to first show them you love them. Jesus NEVER preached hell to the seekers (it was alway reserved for the Church establishment). What a great opportunity to be able to have long and open dialogue with youth during this fragile time.

Yet he did say "go and sin no more".

omajoy · Apr 12, 2012

LilLamb219 said:
Jesus knew when to properly apply Law and Gospel. I thought this thread was dealing with kids in confirmation class...meaning they aren't seekers, they're already Christians.

Excellent point.

Studeclunker · Apr 13, 2012

Stephan2050 said:
Jesus NEVER preached hell to the seekers (it was alway reserved for the Church establishment).

First of all you forget the venue in which Jesus preached. Often his most vehement attacks against the established authorities was in the temple itself. This with the whitness of hundreds, possibly thousands of people. So, yes, Jesus did preach Hell to the Seekers. Those who have repented, have no need of a Lawgiver anymore just as those who are well have no need of a physician. Those, who puff themselves up with pride and piety, have serious need of said Lawgiver. Thus, Jesus gave as it was needed. Still, when disputing with the experts of the Law and the Pharasees, Jesus did so in front of seekers and believers. Thus, the Law and Hell were delivered to them with an equal measure of Grace and Gospel (Jesus himself).

There are numerous accounts in the Gospels of where the listeners are discussing among themselves what Jesus said. '...Some said,' ...this is a hard thing he teaches,' and etc...

Thus I find it rather specious of you to say that Jesus never preached Hell to 'seekers.' It's not as if he was speaking with the temple and religious authorities of the day in a vaccum.

Stephan2050 · Apr 15, 2012

I'm confused. Just because you hear somone speaking does not mean they are speaking to you. I have not found an example where Jesus speaks Hell to the seekers. I believe it is one of the wost forms of evangalism...Hi, Do you know your going to Hell unless you believe the Bible. It will usually put up a wall... sorry if I don't see Jesus doing this.

PreachersWife2004 · Apr 15, 2012

Stephan2050 said:
I'm confused. Just because you hear somone speaking does not mean they are speaking to you. I have not found an example where Jesus speaks Hell to the seekers. I believe it is one of the wost forms of evangalism...Hi, Do you know your going to Hell unless you believe the Bible. It will usually put up a wall... sorry if I don't see Jesus doing this.

Then how do you explain a person's need for a savior?

Aibrean · Apr 16, 2012

Stephan2050 said:
I'm confused. Just because you hear somone speaking does not mean they are speaking to you. I have not found an example where Jesus speaks Hell to the seekers. I believe it is one of the wost forms of evangalism...Hi, Do you know your going to Hell unless you believe the Bible. It will usually put up a wall... sorry if I don't see Jesus doing this.

Matthew 11:20-24
Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.

Mark 1:14-15
Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.

Mark 9:42-50
Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.

Now, in addition to those verses, the disciples did preach also "hell" to seekers. We believe that the whole Bible is the Word of God, not just the red-letter bits.

WildStrawberry · Apr 19, 2012

Stephan2050 said:
But if the point that was to be made to the child was unless you stop the sin you are going to Hell. If that is correct than, thanks to Victoria Secret...looks like I am doomed.

Well, are you KNOWINGLY going into the sin time and time again with the thought that "well,I'll just do it this ONE more time, I just can't stop myself but God will forgive me again...and again...and again..."(do you subscribe to the catalog simply for onanistic purposes?) or is it more of a situation where you come across a TV commercial with the "angels" in it and...linger...over it before you snap back to yourself and switch the station? The first shows you unrepentant of the sin of lust. The second shows that you are repentant but that you are also human. Catching yourself in the sin and continuing to do it willfully is what I'm talking about with my student. Willful sin shows unrepentance no matter how many times you've said "I'm sorry".

LilLamb219 said:
That's a law/gospel issue right there. Properly distinguishing between Law and Gospel and knowing when repentance comes into play is extremely important!

Exactly. This is what I'm trying to talk to my student about. She KNOWS the Law/Gospel "thing"...but she's butting heads with the world over it.

Stephan2050 said:
Thats what you give to a Jr High student struggling with Homosexuality. Properly dstinguish between Law and Gospel or your going to Hell?

JUNIOR in HIGH SCHOOL. LOL

I gave her the truth, unless a man repent of his sins, he will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. This doesn't mean that if we don't confess every second of everyday we're doomed. It means that true repentance comes from seeking to do what is RIGHT, even if we slip up. If we didn't slip up, we wouldn't need Christ, now would we?? But if I were to willfully go out and, let's go with the homosexuality issue, if I were to willfully go out and sleep with another woman KNOWING that it's wrong, heck not just wrong but an ABOMINATION, in the eyes of the Lord, after having repented of homosexuality, that shows that I was not truly repentant. HOWEVER, if I were to go over to a friend's house and she up and kissed me and I liked it...that doesn't mean that I'm doomed...unless I did it again in a willful manner. Make sense??

Aibrean said:
Without acknowledgement of the sin and moving forward with repentance, of course they will be doomed. The approach shouldn't be any more different than someone struggling with another "public" sin. Would you tell an alcoholic to just keep up with drinking?

I would hardly call a high school student a child.

Exactly. Thanks.

Stephan2050 said:
I believe that the only way to speak truth into the life of a struggling teen is to first show them you love them. Jesus NEVER preached hell to the seekers (it was alway reserved for the Church establishment). What a great opportunity to be able to have long and open dialogue with youth during this fragile time.

My kids KNOW I love them. I'd say you could ask them but since they're under the age of 18, I'll let it slide. Of course, since I've been teaching for over 20 years and a number of my former students are Pastors, you could ask them...LOL

The problem with so many denominations in this day and age is that NONE OF THEM want to actually talk about SIN. They love the happy joy good feelings part of the Gospel but they turn their backs on the subjects of Law and Sin. (unless they're OVERLY lawful...that's a problem as well.) My Husbunny once said that he felt very uncomfortable when the congregation confessed that we are "poor miserable sinners". I looked at him and said "well DUH! No one WANTS to be told they're a sinner but EVERYONE needs to be told that very thing!" He thought about it for awhile and realized I was right. You HAVE to show the Law WITH the Gospel or the Gospel just doesn't...make sense. Why would God, a LOVING God, send His Son to die in such a brutal and humiliating way? Because the wage of sin is DEATH and HE didn't want US to die spiritually.

My kids and I have some of the best talks I've ever had. They KNOW they can talk to me about anything at all and I will take them seriously. I don't go and blab it to their parents (unless it's a particularly dangerous thing for them to be doing...and yes, sexual encounters falls into the realm of "particularly dangerous" and they know it.) so they are comfortable talking with me. They NEED an adult who they can trust, who can be a mentor for them especially during these times of Postmodern life.

LilLamb219 said:
Jesus knew when to properly apply Law and Gospel. I thought this thread was dealing with kids in confirmation class...meaning they aren't seekers, they're already Christians.

Actually, my HS Sunday School class but...6 of one... You are right, they ARE already Christians. This particular student vehemently confesses her love for Jesus and her beliefs that He is her Savior. She's just...struggling with this and THAT is where I'm trying trying trying to help her over the "hump".

Where did I go wrong???

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