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When your best evidence is a theme park...

philadiddle

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Science can be stubborn about its current theories (explanations of reality) but science has changed its mind on issues before.

Since the scientific community tends to work using certain models that seem to explain reality and help them make predictions, making drastic alterations to those theories, or even completely replacing those theories takes years and years of research and hard evidence.

For example, when Einstein used relativity as a means of explaining the motion of planets it replaced newtonian physics when dealing with things of that scale. But it was more than just some formulas that seemed to explain things. There was a wobble in the orbit of one of the planets which was currently unexplained, when Einstein used relativity and plugged in the numbers, it worked perfectly. His theory made predictions and worked with what we observe in reality.

Other ideas in science aren't based on direct observation. String theory for example isn't really worthy of being called a theory yet. While the fancy math seems to work out, we don't have the hard evidence to support it yet. However, physicists know that in order to gain ground they need evidence so they use research methods like the particle collider in europe to find evidence of what they expect to see in the subatomic realm. While they don't have the evidence yet, they are trying to find it.

Moving from physics to the life sciences, we find that todays research is dominated by an evolution model. While doing double blind tests with phylogentic trees we get results that fit the predictions of evolution. When looking for oil companies who only care about money hire scientists that study core samples with the model of deep time and evolution. While researching diseases for cures companies only interested in finding a cure the fastest hire biologists who use an evolutionary model in their research. The evidence is there and it seems to fit with reality. If you work in those fields and you can't get results, you don't keep your job.

Then we have creationism. They try to tear down the evidence that is used in real jobs by real people, but given the environment that creationists tend to be in, it doesn't matter if they are actually right or wrong, they just need people to believe them and to buy their dvd series.

But is there even an attempt to find positive evidence for creationism? Well, AiG already put tens of millions into its museum to dupe gullible crowds into accepting their pseudoscience, and now they are going to put 24.5 million dollars into a replica of the ark that will be the central theme of a large scale theme park, with the intention of convincing people of the truth of a historical Genesis.

It should be obvious to most people that if you have a fringe theory, like string theory, and you think that it's possibly true, that you could invest millions of dollars into research. At the same time, if you have a fringe theory that you know can't be true and won't have any evidence, then you wouldn't waste millions of dollars actually doing research, instead you pump your money into museums and theme parks that are based on shallow theology so that you can keep the revenue stream alive.

When your best evidence is a theme park...
 
A

AnswersInHovind

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a simple google search brings up a variety of Creationist research projects.

i.e ICR Research

There are many museums that advocate for evolution - I don't think having one for creationism is some unfair marketing ploy.

The theme park? Even if you don't agree, it will be a giant sized noah's ark and thats just fun. How can you hate on roller coasters?
 
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philadiddle

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a simple google search brings up a variety of Creationist research projects.

i.e ICR Research
Could you name a specific research project of theirs that you think is credible research?

There are many museums that advocate for evolution - I don't think having one for creationism is some unfair marketing ploy.
It is when your budget has zero research and you specifically say that the theme park is to convince people of your biblical pseudoscientific view.

The theme park? Even if you don't agree, it will be a giant sized noah's ark and thats just fun. How can you hate on roller coasters?
There won't be any roller coasters. Everything there will be a fun way to indoctrinate people with fantasy. It's basically like a disneyland without the fun rides, except that people will actually take it seriously.
 
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Siyha

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Could you name a specific research project of theirs that you think is credible research?
That isn't really a fair question because nothing creationists do will be viewed as credible in your eyes, the same way nothing evolutionists do is credible in theirs.

He linked you to a website that does creationist research, and as he said, google brings up more. If you want to object that creationism doesn't do any research, perhaps you should put some effort into actually showing that rather than put everything on your opponents then go, "nope - prove it" when they respond, having proved nothing yourself.

philadiddle said:
It is when your budget has zero research and you specifically say that the theme park is to convince people of your biblical pseudoscientific view.
Are you refering to just AiG? or Creationism as a whole?

Some organizations do research, some focus on education. Do you really think the same company needs to be actively engaged in both?

philadiddle said:
There won't be any roller coasters. Everything there will be a fun way to indoctrinate people with fantasy. It's basically like a disneyland without the fun rides, except that people will actually take it seriously.

Like a science centre! I hate sending my kids to those things - they just fill their heads with scientific propaganda by making learning fun! Its mad trickery I tell you!
 
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philadiddle

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That isn't really a fair question because nothing creationists do will be viewed as credible in your eyes, the same way nothing evolutionists do is credible in theirs.
We'll see which one he thinks is credible and go from there. I looked at a few pages and didn't see any research other than the fact that the word "research" is in the title. So instead of completely brushing it off I'm asking him for a specific example.

Even if I end up not agreeing, asking him what he thinks about it is always a fair question.

You want me to prove a negative?

Are you refering to just AiG? or Creationism as a whole?
AiG
 
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Greg1234

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You want me to prove a negative?
You are asked to provide evidence that chance and necessity can turn microbes into men.

For example, when Einstein used relativity as a means of explaining the motion of planets it replaced newtonian physics when dealing with things of that scale.
The difference is we already know that when you jump you will fall. So we try to explain that in light of the data we have. We already know that rocks cannot assemble themselves into the great pyramid, so we try to explain that using historical and empirical research. We already know that adaptation is limited, the effects of random mutation and degradation. So we attempt to explain that. It's no different than attempting to explain why cars adapt with limit on a desolate planet. Intelligent design is included and all the data is in favor of it. Using Darwinism is like formulating theories to explain why nothing falls.


Other ideas in science aren't based on direct observation. String theory for example isn't really worthy of being called a theory
Nobody said it was empirically observable. The developing research leading scientists to conclusions like the string theory have them unwittingly starting to sound like the ancients whether they want to or not. That's the only reason why it is used. Some physical scientists recognize it and those who dare speak that way are chastised for something they cannot help but speak about.
Then we have creationism. They try to tear down the evidence that is used in real jobs by real people,
Define evolution. Scientists use Creationism everyday. The body they have is created. The cars they drive is created. The people they talk to are created. Their computers are created. Their cellphones are created. Their coffee maker, houses, street lights, televisions.
 
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JVPITER

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You are asked to provide evidence that chance and necessity can turn microbes into men.

Hi

I don't think anyone here believes chance and necessity alone can account for the history of life, do they? Natural history is ordained by God.


What do we know that limits adaptation?

We do know that billions of years ago there were only simple organisms, then as the ages progressed life diversified and became more and more complex. These facts are what the theory of evolution explains.


Peace
 
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Greg1234

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Hi

I don't think anyone here believes chance and necessity alone can account for the history of life, do they?
There are such people.
Natural history is ordained by God.
I've heard the stipulations

What do we know that limits adaptation?
Alot.
We do know that billions of years ago there were only simple organisms, then as the ages progressed life diversified and became more and more complex. These facts are what the theory of evolution explains.


Peace
We also know that decades ago there were only simple cars and as the ages progressed, they became more and more complex. Darwinism isn't needed to explain this.
 
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JVPITER

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Can you name one in this Christian Only forum?

JVPITER said:
What do we know that limits adaptation?
Alot.

That's not an answer. Please describe what we know that puts a limit on adaptation.


Cars don't reproduce like living things do, so that is a completely irrelevant analogy.

In any case, my point is that the theory of evolution explains the fact that life has changed over billions of years by diversifying and becoming more complex.

You may not agree that it's a true explanation. But when you said "Darwinism is like formulating theories to explain why nothing falls", you sounded like you were denying that there was a set of actual facts that evolution attemps to explain. And that's silly.


Peace
 
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Greg1234

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Can you name one in this Christian Only forum?
No I'm not going to name names. The "god is responsible for mutations line isn't applicable. It's just chance and necessity.



That's not an answer. Please describe what we know that puts a limit on adaptation.
Start here: [The Edge of Evolution] - C-SPAN Video Library



Cars don't reproduce like living things do, so that is a completely irrelevant analogy.
Reproduction is taken into consideration.


In any case, my point is that the theory of evolution explains the fact that life has changed over billions of years by diversifying and becoming more complex.
As given in previous post.
Darwinism which is based on unlimited diversification cannot be used to explain why things adapt with limits. These are the set of facts.
 
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JVPITER

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If you can't name even one, then such a person doesn't exist. Therefore it is simply false to claim that anyone here believes or argues for chance and necessity alone, because that's an atheist position.


But Behe doesn't argue there's a limit to adaptation, because he accepts common ancestry of all life over billions of years. He just argues that chance and necessity alone are unsufficient to explain this. As we just established, everyone here agrees with that.


And if you take reproduction into consideration you see what a terrible analogy cars are for living things in the area of evolution.

Cars don't reproduce, so they can't have ancestors. Evolution only works for things that reproduce and have ancestors. So of course Darwinism isn't needed to explain the history of cars, because evolution doesn't apply to cars in the first place. Its an irrelevant analogy, like I said.


Evolution is not based on unlimited diversification, it's based on diversification limited by ancestry. Unlimited diversification wouldn't match the constrained branching pattern of similarities and differences between living things that we actually observe. This was clearly explained by Darwin in The Origin of Species.


Peace
 
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Greg1234

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If you can't name even one, then such a person doesn't exist. Therefore it is simply false to claim that anyone here believes or argues for chance and necessity alone, because that's an atheist position.
As just outlined.


Yes the data shows limits. As for Behe's pursuasion, he holds that there must be the continuous input from intelligence for a microbe to go to man. Rather than appearances, constant remodeling, tinkering and updating to overcome those limits. That's still a form of intelligent design.



And if you take reproduction into consideration you see what a terrible analogy cars are for living things in the area of evolution.
If I take reproduction into consideration the same results are obtained.

It's not.




Diversification that takes microbes to men. No it's not limited.
 
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solarwave

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I think it is pretty sad that creationists spend these huge amounts of money on pushing their beliefs forwards when doing so doesn't even help anyone. What if all this money was give to a good cause to help real people? It could do a lot of good and helping the poor and the ill is one of the main things Jesus taught, not talking about the beginning of the world.

It is true that alot of money is spent on evolution, but science makes the world better and knew discoveries in science can come from everywhere, so investigation into all things helps in the end.
 
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JVPITER

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Greg, I can't even tell whether you agree with me based on what you said.

You appear to use words to dissemble and finesse. That is not the biblical approach, which is to be ready and forthright with speech (1 Peter 3:15)


Fine, its a form of intelligent design. But it directly contradicts your claim that Behe argued for limits to adaptation. He did not. He agreed with microbes to man evolution i.e. extensive adaptation, and argued for the insufficiency of chance and necessity alone to account for it.

So you have still failed to describe what we know that puts a limit on adaptation, which was your original claim.


Greg, this response is so feeble I think anyone reading this can see you have effectively conceded the point. Your argument that cars don't evolve via Darwinian processes, therefore living things don't, is fallacious because the analogy is irrelevant.


You are incorrect. The "tree of life" described by Darwin is a branching process - it is mathematically necessary that descendants share the characters of their ancestors, and do not share the characters of other branches from whom they are not descended. Thus, the theory of evolution inherently limits the possible diversification of life to a branching pattern.

Livings things that do not follow this branching pattern thus are not following Darwinian evolution. We know this because Darwinian evolution is not unlimited, in which case it would agree with any observation. But it doesn't, because the theory limits the diversification allowed.


Peace
 
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J

Jazer

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Hi

A theory is not evidence. A theory explains evidence. Different things.


Peace
That is why it is so difficult to argue against some of the various evolution theorys. Often it is a way to explain the evidence or what has been observed. It comes down to right or wrong this is the best way we have to explain the evidence that we currently are working with.
 
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JVPITER

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Good point. You will certainly find it hard to argue against evolution if you get evidence and theory mixed up.

Evidence are facts that we can observe, like genetic mutations in a lab.

A theory explains what we can see by tying together lots of different evidence into a single explanation, and predicts what evidence will be observed in unexplored situations.

Because the theory of evolution ties together huge amounts of different evidence, and has produced many accurate predictions, it is tempting for some to speak of it as a fact. This is incorrect, because theories are abstract things and cannot be observed in the same way as a fact. Theories are just the logical inferences that let you predict, based on facts A, B and C, that fact D will be observed.

Coming back to the OP --- Quite frankly an ark theme park sounds like fun. Can you think of any actual scientific theory that would make a fun theme for a theme park? I can't think of any that sound anywhere near as much fun as the ark. Seriously.


Peace
 
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shernren

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Coming back to the OP --- Quite frankly an ark theme park sounds like fun. Can you think of any actual scientific theory that would make a fun theme for a theme park? I can't think of any that sound anywhere near as much fun as the ark. Seriously.

And I'm not sure if you would want an actual scientific theme park.



 
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