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When will the secularist hypocracy end?

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Holy Roller

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When the Palestinians do a homicide bombing on the Israeli's, the areligious secularists will complain, "There goes those religious fundie crackpots killing innocent people in the name of religion again!" Then, when convenience suits them, they quip, "Yep! Another despondent victim living in squalor committing an act out of righteous indignation..."
Why the hypocrisy?
 
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Nathan45

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When the Palestinians do a homicide bombing on the Israeli's, the areligious secularists will complain, "There goes those religious fundie crackpots killing innocent people in the name of religion again!" Then, when convenience suits them, they quip, "Yep! Another despondent victim living in squalor committing an act out of righteous indignation..."
Why the hypocrisy?

i realize that us secularists must all look the same to you but i'm pretty sure you're referring to two different people.
 
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Holy Roller

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i realize that us secularists must all look the same to you but i'm pretty sure you're referring to two different people.

The first person is a secularist who blames the Palestinian on his religious beliefs. The second person is the same secularist but on a different day who blames Israel.
 
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Nathan45

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The first person is a secularist who blames the Palestinian on his religious beliefs. The second person is the same secularist but on a different day who blames Israel.

Multiple personality disorder?

Perhaps you should contact this secularist (i'm sure you can't name him, for his own protection) and advise him to seek help.

Furthermore, your original post actually said "Secularists" which implies that there's more than one person who made the same statement. I find that fascinating.
 
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Holy Roller

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Multiple personality disorder?

Perhaps you should contact this secularist (i'm sure you can't name him, for his own protection) and advise him to seek help.

Furthermore, your original post actually said "Secularists" which implies that there's more than one person who made the same statement. I find that fascinating.

Us religious folk know exactly why homicide bombings are carried out: it's because the Palestinians don't want to get with the program, that's why. They would rather feel the sentimental attachment to people in countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia before they will get with the program. And getting with the program means doing things our way. It's our way or the highway.

If you feel or think any differently on the topic, you're a secularist who will use either excuse illustrated above to justify the homicide bombings...
 
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TeddyKGB

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Us religious folk know exactly why homicide bombings are carried out: it's because the Palestinians don't want to get with the program, that's why. They would rather feel the sentimental attachment to people in countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia before they will get with the program. And getting with the program means doing things our way. It's our way or the highway.
You're talking about people who blow themselves up. I am not sure there is a more definitive way of stating that they are not interested in "our way."
If you feel or think any differently on the topic, you're a secularist who will use either excuse illustrated above to justify the homicide bombings...
Stop acting like a child.
 
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TooCurious

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Us religious folk know exactly why homicide bombings are carried out: it's because the Palestinians don't want to get with the program, that's why. They would rather feel the sentimental attachment to people in countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia before they will get with the program. And getting with the program means doing things our way. It's our way or the highway.

If you feel or think any differently on the topic, you're a secularist who will use either excuse illustrated above to justify the homicide bombings...

What if I think that both sides are engaged in rather tribalistic squabbling over what's honestly a rather unattractive piece of real estate? Each side is angry at the other for political reasons, and to add fuel to the fire, both sides think they've got God on their side. This is an obvious recipe for disaster -- as we can clearly observe. After all, when you make a group of people into a cultural, ethnic, or religious "Other," it's much easier to do horrible things to them.
 
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Nathan45

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What if I think that both sides are engaged in rather tribalistic squabbling over what's honestly a rather unattractive piece of real estate?

Seriously, tell that to the 7 million israelis who live there. Just an "unattractive" piece of real estate, eh? that's their home, where the hell should they go? should they go to alaska like ahmadinejad says? no, that's ridiculous. What do you expect them to do besides defend their land?

The palestinians leaders openly proclaim that they want to push the israelis into the sea, they just can't figure out how to do it after all these years.

The difference between the israelis and the palestinians is that if the palestinians layed down their arms, there would be no war, and if the israelis layed down their arms there would be no israel. The palestinians have been beaten repeatedly yet they still havn't surrendered 40 years after the war. The problems in israel and palestine will be solved once the palestinians figure out how to restrain their own terrorists and build themselves a government that is both effective and not hostile to israel.
 
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TooCurious

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Seriously, tell that to the 7 million israelis who live there. Just an "unattractive" piece of real estate, eh? that's their home, where the hell should they go? should they go to alaska like ahmadinejad says? no, that's ridiculous. What do you expect them to do besides defend their land?

Yes, I'm aware it's their home. No, I'm not saying they should "go" anywhere.

I guess this is what happens when you don't think either side is perfect: you get both sides accusing you of supporting the other one.

The palestinians leaders openly proclaim that they want to push the israelis into the sea, they just can't figure out how to do it after all these years.

The difference between the israelis and the palestinians is that if the palestinians layed down their arms, there would be no war, and if the israelis layed down their arms there would be no israel. The palestinians have been beaten repeatedly yet they still havn't surrendered 40 years after the war. The problems in israel and palestine will be solved once the palestinians figure out how to restrain their own terrorists and build themselves a government that is both effective and not hostile to israel.

Clearly, the solution is simple, and the other side is just being irrational. There's no way they could feel they have legitimate grievances. Now, are those grievances actually legitimate? Maybe not. Maybe they should just accept the fact that there was a war, they lost, and now it's time to move on to something constructive. Though I imagine that if they feel they're living under occupation (however erroneous that feeling might be), that's hard. Are their means of expressing their grievances legitimate? Absolutely not. Violence, and especially violence against civilians, is not a constructive means of political discourse, and is horrific besides. In fact, if someone had quoted my last post and gotten confrontational at me by taking the Palestinian side, I could just as easily find myself defending Israel, because as I said, neither side is completely right.

But that's the thing: each side looks at the issue from the perspective that they are the innocent party, and that the other side has wronged them. With that approach, combined with the "us versus them" tribalism, of course things aren't getting any closer to a resolution.
 
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Matthewj1985

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This is going to come off as cold but the Palestinians just want their land back and I can't blame them for fighting, I know I would be. Terrorism sucks but when all you have are junk weapons and the other side has the latest and greatest American weapons you really don't have much of a choice. Remember PLO started out as a secular organization to win back lands stolen from them and it was actually the Jews who started bombing civilian targets under the British. You can rationalize it all you want but at the end of the day you have one group stealing land from another because of a superstition.
 
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Bombila

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A pox on all their houses, radical Judaism and radical Islam, wherever they exist in the world. I certainly wish they could all resolve their differences at least to the point of not killing each other and themselves. It doesn't, of course, much matter what we think of who is right and who is wrong, and however it ends, they will find a way to blame it all on the immodesty of women anyway. I am fed up with nonsense like this, and don't care to think of such countries as 'friendly nations' until such time as they can get a grip on the madmen they call religious, and stop treating them as above the law or holding them in reverence when they make such stupid, misogynist decisions, statements, acts.

These first lot hold in awe a politically connected rabbi who has famously said "Walking between two women is like walking between two camels, or two donkeys." - B

"...In Israel's ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, where the rule of law sometimes takes a back seat to the rule of God, zealots are on a campaign to stamp out behavior they consider unchaste. They hurl stones at women for such "sins" as wearing a red blouse, and attack stores selling devices that can access the Internet.
In recent weeks, self-styled "modesty patrols" have been accused of breaking into the apartment of a Jerusalem woman and beating her for allegedly consorting with men...."

http://www.salon.com/wires/ap/world/2008/10/04/D93JN84O0_ml_israel_enforcing_modesty/index.html


And this lot follow men like this, who will only be happy when all women are invisible prisoners in the households of men. - B

"A Muslim cleric in Saudi Arabia has called on women to wear a full veil, or niqab, that reveals only one eye.
Sheikh Muhammad al-Habadan said showing both eyes encouraged women to use eye make-up to look seductive.
The question of how much of her face a woman should cover is a controversial topic in many Muslim societies.
The niqab is more common in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf, but women in much of the Muslim Middle East wear a headscarf which covers only their hair.
Sheikh Habadan, an ultra-conservative cleric who is said to have wide influence among religious Saudis, was answering questions on the Muslim satellite channel al-Majd."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7651231.stm
 
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Nathan45

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Clearly, the solution is simple, and the other side is just being irrational. There's no way they could feel they have legitimate grievances. Now, are those grievances actually legitimate? Maybe not.

I'm not saying the palestinians have no grievances whatsoever, neither side's hands are particularly clean in this, what i am saying is...

Maybe they should just accept the fact that there was a war, they lost, and now it's time to move on to something constructive.
Couldn't have said it better.
 
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Nathan45

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This is going to come off as cold but the Palestinians just want their land back and I can't blame them for fighting, I know I would be. Terrorism sucks but when all you have are junk weapons and the other side has the latest and greatest American weapons you really don't have much of a choice. Remember PLO started out as a secular organization to win back lands stolen from them and it was actually the Jews who started bombing civilian targets under the British. You can rationalize it all you want but at the end of the day you have one group stealing land from another because of a superstition.

where the hell do you get your history from, al-jazeera?

Jews have been living in palestine uninterrupted since pre-roman times.

More started migrating there in the 20th century especially around world war II, mostly because they had no where else to go.

And they didn't "steal" the land, they settled it, bought some of it... palestine was bearly inhabited at the time, there were only a few hundred thousand people there in 1900.

The problem was that as the population increased (both jews and arabs), the arabs and the jews started comming more into contact and conflict. So you had terrorism running rampant on both sides.

At the time the region was under british control following the collapse of the ottoman empire ... The U.N. tried to reach an agreement to partition israel/palestine into two states, however the arabs rejected this... all the arab states invaded israel, but they lost. They all invaded again in 1967 and lost again.

Furthermore, the arabs were never expelled from the israeli side of palestine, they left on their own because when the arab nations invaded they told all of the friendly arabs to leave so they could destroy the place utterly without worrying about killing their own.

Not all arabs left israel, which is why about 20% of israel's citizens are non-jewish arab.

IMO Time to just admit they lost and be satisfied with 99% of the land in the middle east. Of course, the non-palestinian arabs won't lift a finger to help the palestinians, they treat them like lepers.
 
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Holy Roller

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where the hell do you get your history from, al-jazeera?

Jews have been living in palestine uninterrupted since pre-roman times.

More started migrating there in the 20th century especially around world war II, mostly because they had no where else to go.

And they didn't "steal" the land, they settled it, bought some of it... palestine was bearly inhabited at the time, there were only a few hundred thousand people there in 1900.

The problem was that as the population increased (both jews and arabs), the arabs and the jews started comming more into contact and conflict. So you had terrorism running rampant on both sides.

At the time the region was under british control following the collapse of the ottoman empire ... The U.N. tried to reach an agreement to partition israel/palestine into two states, however the arabs rejected this... all the arab states invaded israel, but they lost. They all invaded again in 1967 and lost again.

Furthermore, the arabs were never expelled from the israeli side of palestine, they left on their own because when the arab nations invaded they told all of the friendly arabs to leave so they could destroy the place utterly without worrying about killing their own.

Not all arabs left israel, which is why about 20% of israel's population is non-jewish arab.

IMO Time to just admit they lost and be satisfied with 99% of the land in the middle east. Of course, the non-palestinian arabs won't lift a finger to help the palestinians, they treat them like lepers.

Nathan45, you and I have had our friction in the Physical and Life Sciences forum, but this time around, you're spot-on.

You guys may think this sounds harsh, but if I were Prez in 2001, I would have launched Operation Peace in the Middle-East. This Operation would have had the US Army take the Palestinians from their dwellings, by force if necessary, and transplant them to urban sites in Saudi Arabia and Iran.
The Palestinians would have been compensated by the sale of the land they occupied, as such land would have been auctioned off to international interests in Israel and Egypt.
By relocating them in Saudi Arabia and Tehran, we will know where the Iranian and Saudi leadership really stand with regards to the Palestinians. Iran wants Israel "wiped off the map" because of perceived injustices on the Palestinians; my Operation--Operation Peace in the Middle-East--would see if they walk the walk rather than just talk the talk.
 
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Nathan45

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Nathan45, you and I have had our friction in the Physical and Life Sciences forum, but this time around, you're spot-on.

I still think you're a poe :p

You guys may think this sounds harsh, but if I were Prez in 2001, I would have launched Operation Peace in the Middle-East. This Operation would have had the US Army take the Palestinians from their dwellings, by force if necessary, and transplant them to urban sites in Saudi Arabia and Iran.
The Palestinians would have been compensated by the sale of the land they occupied, as such land would have been auctioned off to international interests in Israel and Egypt.
By relocating them in Saudi Arabia and Tehran, we will know where the Iranian and Saudi leadership really stand with regards to the Palestinians. Iran wants Israel "wiped off the map" because of perceived injustices on the Palestinians; my Operation--Operation Peace in the Middle-East--would see if they walk the walk rather than just talk the talk.
I don't think that sounds harsh, i think it sounds impractical, illegal and impossible.

I don't see why the palestinians shouldn't be allowed to stay in the west bank and gaza, and i wish them the best of luck building a functional country there, although they need to recognize israel and the terrorism needs to stop. In any case, we shouldn't be sending U.S. troops into palestine, look at the mess we've made in iraq.

also your plan is totally absurd on many levels, unless we could get saudi arabia and iran to agree to this there's no way we're shipping palestinians by the millions into their countries, so we'd basically need to invade saudi arabia AND iran to make this work, which is ludicrous. Also the logistics of the situation is impossible.

Expelling ethnic groups by the millions has been tried in the past, it usually leads to mass starvation due to logistical problems and is afterwords referred to as "genocide".
 
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stan1980

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Nathan45, you and I have had our friction in the Physical and Life Sciences forum, but this time around, you're spot-on.

You guys may think this sounds harsh, but if I were Prez in 2001, I would have launched Operation Peace in the Middle-East. This Operation would have had the US Army take the Palestinians from their dwellings, by force if necessary, and transplant them to urban sites in Saudi Arabia and Iran.
The Palestinians would have been compensated by the sale of the land they occupied, as such land would have been auctioned off to international interests in Israel and Egypt.
By relocating them in Saudi Arabia and Tehran, we will know where the Iranian and Saudi leadership really stand with regards to the Palestinians. Iran wants Israel "wiped off the map" because of perceived injustices on the Palestinians; my Operation--Operation Peace in the Middle-East--would see if they walk the walk rather than just talk the talk.

On top of what Nathan rightly said in the post above, if you went ahead with plans like that, then it would end up being the least peaceful peace mission in history. All hell would break loose. You haven't thought this through, have you?
 
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OphidiaPhile

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I think you guys are ignoring the time-frame I listed when I said I'd carry out Operation Peace in the Middle-East.
To remind you, the time frame would have been 12 Sep 2001.

So you are advocating something that would increase hatred and terrorism towards the United States, interesting.
 
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Holy Roller

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So you are advocating something that would increase hatred and terrorism towards the United States, interesting.

That sounds about right. As it stands, the Palestinians (and the Arab world at-large) now celebrate 11 Sep 2001 as a holiday.
 
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