When will signs ceased?

[grace24]

After the completion of the NT canon, or either when Paul fulfilled the works that he was called to do, or is it the last day when our body become resurrected and or Jesus' return?

Paul say they will ceased in 1 Cor 13:5:8, when that which is perfect has come... that which is perfect is what? Is it the completion of the NT canon or Jesus' return?

Who in here can speak in tongues or prophesy? Why should I believe you? Can you drink deadly poison thing and it shall not harm you? Can you raised the dead? Heal the blind? Cleanse the leper?

1 John 2:27 says the disciple had the Holy Spirit teach them all things and need not any man to teach them. Do you know all things?

What are your thoughts about this?

 

[Jpark]

Look at the context:

For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

And here is what it means. Also consider Phil. 3:8, 10, and 12.

that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;

We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

 

[grace24]

Look at the context:

For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

And here is what it means. Also consider Phil. 3:8, 10, and 12.

that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;

We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Thanks! I think that is clear. One question though... Jesus says greater works shall be done to whoever believe in me. Was Jesus speaking only to the disciples? The disciples did greater work didn't they? They cast out demons, drink deadly things, and most importantly they had many conversion to the body of Christ. Or is that verse also apply to us today? So who today can raised the dead? Nobody. So what do you think? What do you think that verse mean when Jesus speak about greater works. I did looked up a few Bible commentary, and most of them did not say it meant miracles or anything like that, but it was more of a spiritual conversion and stuff like that.

 

[Jpark]

Thanks! I think that is clear. One question though... Jesus says greater works shall be done to whoever believe in me. Was Jesus speaking only to the disciples? The disciples did greater work didn't they? They cast out demons, drink deadly things, and most importantly they had many conversion to the body of Christ.

Or is that verse also apply to us today?

So who today can raised the dead? Nobody. So what do you think? What do you think that verse mean when Jesus speak about greater works. I did looked up a few Bible commentary, and most of them did not say it meant miracles or anything like that, but it was more of a spiritual conversion and stuff like that.

First, let's take a look at the verse little by little.

John 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me,

the works that I do, he will do also;

and greater works than these he will do;

because I go to the Father.



So it's clear that the verse applies to anyone who believes in Him.
The one who believes in Him will do the works that Jesus did. This is surely a promise.
What does He mean by greater works? The only clue provided is "because I go to the Father", unless we look at the context.

The preceding verse:

"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

The following verse:

"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.



What does He mean by "believe because of the works"? That He is the Son of God.

Before I proceed, we know that to be the Son of God is to be equal with God (John 5:18).

I admit, I am biased, and the following might not be accurate:

To be the Son of God is to be the Judge (John 10:34-36).

John 10:34-35 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? 35"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

What did it mean to be called gods in the OT (besides idols)?

Psalm 82:6, 58:1

John 10:36 (ISV) how can you say to the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

Jesus is identifying Himself as the Judge.

John 5:22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

The Father is synonymous for God. God is called God the Father. There is no God, the Father in Scripture. This verse is saying that not even God Himself judges anyone.

Phil. 2:9-10 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,



So a prerequisite of performing these works is to believe that Jesus is God.

Now then, let's take a look at the verse following John 14:12:

"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Which brings to mind 1 John 3:22-24:

and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

So who today can raise the dead?

The one who lives again (John 11:25-26).

John 11:25-26 (REB) Jesus said unto her - I, am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, even though he die, shall live again! And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?

I will show you the most important verse in the Bible!

1 Peter 1:1-2, 22-23 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart [two early mss read "a clean heart"],
23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:2-3 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

What is the born again state? It is by requesting the blood of Jesus AND applying it. Exodus 12 is the key.

Exodus 12:7 'Moreover, they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses in which they eat it.

If this is not the proper interpretation, then how does man purify himself? How can man purify himself using inadequate things?

 

[papaJP]

Thanks! I think that is clear. One question though... Jesus says greater works shall be done to whoever believe in me. Was Jesus speaking only to the disciples? The disciples did greater work didn't they? They cast out demons, drink deadly things, and most importantly they had many conversion to the body of Christ. Or is that verse also apply to us today? So who today can raised the dead? Nobody. So what do you think? What do you think that verse mean when Jesus speak about greater works. I did looked up a few Bible commentary, and most of them did not say it meant miracles or anything like that, but it was more of a spiritual conversion and stuff like that.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Both the original post and your reply are not only incorrect but unbiblical.
Jesus meant all who believed and were filled by the Holy Spirit could do all He did. The Bible comentaries were written by men most who were not filled with the Holy Spirit and do not have all the truth. None of us have all the truth. However, I can tell you that I have been a part of and witnessed God through His Holy Spirit's Power do most of miracles Jesus did.

If you doubt the word of God and do not believe He is the same today, as He was and will be then you have a serious problem.

By, the way the disciples nor any man did the miracles without the power of God through His Holy Spirit flowing through them.

I would suggest strongly you repent of your unbelief and seek the answer from God.

 

[grace24]

If all who believer can do greater works such as raising the dead and stuff like that why don't I see anybody raise from the dead? :0

Logically speaking, I'm not a believer than. Can you raised the dead? Nope. So you're not a believer too. I mean, not that I doubt people can raised from the dead and stuff like that, but I haven't seen one yet in this present age. So why is that?

 

[Apollos1]

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (#1 of 2.)

Most modern day spiritual gifts (SGs) proponents argue their position from SILENCE. There is not ONE passage that advocates that SGs are to continue today!

It is not necessary to base our understanding of spiritual gifts on the “silence” of the scriptures. I believe that the scriptures are complete (2 Pt. 1:3, 1 Cor. 2:10-13, Eph. 3:3-5) and that we must have scripture for any teaching or practice to be “by faith” – Romans 10:17, cf. Col. 3:17, 2 Peter 4:11. Christians walk by faith - not “sight”! Silence is not authoritative and it cannot produce faith!

1 Corinthians 12 lists the –9- spiritual gifts. They are:

-Word of Knowledge (logos sophia)
-Word of Wisdom (llogos gnosis)
-Faith (pistis)
-Gift of healing (iama)
-Working of Miracles (energema dunamis)
-Prophecy (propheteia)
-Discerning of Spirits (diakrisis pneuma)
-Tongues (glossa)
-Interpretation of Tongues (hermeneia glossa)

1 Corinthians 13 tells us about the DURATION of spiritual gifts - how long the gifts were/are to last. 1 Corinthians 14 describes the USE of spiritual gifts.

God granted these gifts to men through the HS. I do not question that God did grant such gifts, nor do I question that He can do such. The question is does God give these gifts to men today?

The PURPOSE of spiritual gifts was to reveal the word and confirm it! Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:3-4, Acts 14:3, cf. Acts 2:22, 4:33, 15:8. The word has been revealed and the word has been confirmed. “The faith” has been delivered once for all time – Jude 3 !

IF the word of God is indeed to be believed and if it is also our source of faith, and if all that His word contains is to be taken as true, then the purpose for which these gifts were given has been accomplished. Therefore spiritual gifts are no longer needed.

Much like a notarized legal document, the written word reveals and confirms itself for us today - being revealed by reading or hearing and confirmed to us today by the events of miracles/signs/& wonders recorded therein – John 20:30-31. The thought of “continuous confirmation” destroys the very purpose of initial confirmation. Such is superfluous !

1 Corinthians 13: –

Take note that Paul begins in 13:1-3 showing the “best way” as mentioned in 12:31 - the way better than the “best gifts”. Paul says that if one speaks in tongues (glossa), prophecy (propheteia), has all faith & knowledge (pistis & gnosis), and gives all that he has including his life, and has not love – it profits nothing. SGs without love are useful/advantageous for nothing. Love is more important than SGs!

In verses 4-7 Paul uses -15- qualities of love in contrast to the problems SGs were creating for the Corinthians. Love is kind, envies not, is not proud, behaves properly, rejoices in truth, endures all things… In contrast to the qualities that SGs exposed in the Corinthians, the qualities of love are better!

8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away: whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. ASV

Verse 8 - In this verse Paul juxtaposes the endurance of love with the temporality of spiritual gifts.)

Prophecies (propheteia) – they shall be done away. (katargeo)
Tongues (glossa) – they shall cease. (pauo)
Knowledge (gnosis) – it shall be done away. (katargeo)

Paul uses these –3- gifts listed in verse 8 as representative of all spiritual gifts, much like a synecdoche. Paul does the same in verse 9 using only –2- gifts as representative of the whole.

Spiritual gifts - the means of revealing and confirming the will of God to man - were to be done away. But when?

Verse 9:
Knowledge – in part.
Prophesy – in part.

Prophecy (speaking forth the mind & counsel of God) and knowledge (to be taking in knowledge or coming to know) wereonly partial at that time and were only given a part at a time. Spiritual gifts made prophecy and knowledge possible and certain. Partial prophecy and knowledge were to cease also according to verse 10. But when?

Most agree with this exegesis up to this point. The disagreement usually begins with the explanation when in verse 10:

- “but when that which is perfect is come…”

 

[Apollos1]

- “but when that which is perfect is come…”
(Literally –“when the perfect thing comes…”) This is the “when”.

Two thoughts are prominent as to what occasion Paul is speaking of:

-The return of Christ -OR-
-The completion of the revelation of the word of God.

(The person of Christ can in no fashion be forced contextually into 1Cor. 13:10. Some settle for “eschatological innuendo”, both in using the phrase “the end of time” in reference to this passage and by attempting to infer that some words in the passage carry some eschatological “overtones”. They don’t! It is from this viewpoint – the end of time - that I shall approach verse 10.)

The completion of God’s revelation is the proper explanation for verse 10. There is NOTHING in this context to suggest that Paul is speaking in regards to the end of time (or Christ) and there is EVERYTHING to suggest that he is speaking about knowledge, prophecy, and the “perfection” of it !!

Paul first compares a “that which” is perfect with a “that which” that is in part, with an underlying contrast. This indicates that the two things Paul speaks of here are the same type of thing, although they not of the same quality. The first “that which” is still “in part” (to ek merous) and has the quality of being incomplete, while the second “that which” is “perfect” (to teleion), and has the quality of coming to be completed, lacking nothing. An example of this would be to compare a partially inflated tire with a properly inflated tire – the same type of thing are compared, but they are not of the same quality.

The word “perfect” is rendered from the Greek word “teleios”. This word signifies a person or thing that has reached its end, finished, complete, perfect; wanting nothing necessary to completeness. (Thayer & Vine both referenced.)

This defining of “teleios” as something coming to completeness is supported by the continuing context of the passage. In the next 3 verses Paul uses -2- analogies to exemplify exactly this. Please note that the context is set in verse 10. The analogies must clarify what has already been said in verse 10. (Analogies do not set the context, but are given to exemplify it.)

The first analogy uses an example of physical development coming to “completeness” and the second analogy uses an example of cognitive development coming to “completeness”. Let us look at Paul’s discourse in verses 11-13.

Paul’s first analogy – verse 11:

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.

In this verse Paul describes the process of maturing – the transition of a child becoming an adult. Paul states in this analogy of verse 11 that once maturity is finished – that is, once the development process has come to completion - then at that time something is done away with. Here it is childish ways that are done away with. That which once served a purpose ceases - the process is finished/complete. (Notice -“that which” was “in part” was an immature person– “that which” is “perfected” is the mature person.)

The application made with the revelation of God’s word is this: once a man is full grown/mature (once the word is fully revealed and confirmed), the childish ways (ei. spiritual gifts) which served to bring man to maturity (the spiritual gifts used to reveal and confirm God’s word) are done away/cease. The purpose of the means of revelation (spiritual gifts) has been completed!

Paul’s second analogy - verse 12:

12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.

In this second analogy of verse 12 Paul uses looking in a mirror to present the same idea of coming to a conclusion or finality, but logically or intellectually in this example.

The word “darkly”, or “riddle” in some translations, is from the Greek word “ainigmati” literally meaning “in an enigma”. A riddle is something to be figured out or solved. It requires a logical process over time to come to the solution – a little part of knowledge is gained at a time. When the process of thought or logic is complete, finished, or “perfect”, a solution is then given for the riddle, or an answer is given for a puzzle. When the answer is given, the logical process used to obtain that finish ceases – it has served its purpose! (“That which” was “in part” could not solve the “riddle” – “that which” is “complete” will solve it.)

Paul says they were seeing “darkly”; everything was not yet seen clearly or revealed. But when that which is perfect is come, the “darkness” or “riddle” is solved, and we will see clearly or “face to face”. Please follow what Paul is saying here. In this analogy “face-to-face” is talking about how one sees in the mirror, not WHO one sees in the mirror.

They did not see all things clearly before the “riddle” was revealed – it was “dark”. But “then”, when “perfection” has come (or as in this analogy, a solution to the riddle) we will see all clearly (we will understand) like we were looking at ourselves in the mirror – face to face. Paul is telling how well we will understand (“see”) once “perfection” has come.

In verse 12b Paul finishes this thought by stating that now he knows (literally, is taking in knowledge) only in part – but “then” he shall know fully or completely. How well shall we know? Paul says “even as also I was fully known”. This is in the mirror – face to face. Paul is telling us how well we are going to know “then”. (cf. James 1:25.)

13 But now abideth (MENO) faith, hope, and love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
Paul concludes this chapter with the same topic he began it with - by speaking of love (the “best way”). The close of the chapter presents another contrast & another hurdle for those who claim that SGs were not to cease after the completion of God’s revelation.

The word for “abideth” here is the Greek word meno, which means: to remain, abide, not to depart, to last, endure.

Paul says that only –3- things “Now abide” – faith, hope, and love. This is in direct contrast to those things that would cease – tongues, knowledge, & prophecy (SGs)! The point Paul makes to the gift-loving Corinthians is that faith, hope, & love will remain – these are permanent, while the SGs will cease – SGs will not remain.

Now, of these three things, only one will continue into eternity. When we are with Christ in eternity, faith and hope will have ended. Only love will last into eternity.
So, here is Paul's "timeline":

- Miraculous gifts will cease, but faith, hope and love will abide until eternity begins, and of these three, love is the greatest as it will continue even into eternity.

Now the thing that makes this problematic for SG proponents is the view that miraculous gifts will continue until “the end of time” (Christ returns and takes us away to be "like Him.") Such a view completely obliterates the comparison Paul is making and forces us to conclude that miraculous gifts will not cease, fail, vanish away, or be done away at all, but will “abide” as faith, hope, and love are to.

The “end of time” view is in direct contradiction of the point that Paul closes this chapter with.

“But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.”ASV

 

[grace24]

Hey thanks! I begin to understand clearly now. My concern is... SG believers can still say that SG can still continue today until the end of time, and then when Jesus come back the SG will end. But here you say this view completely obliterates the comparison Paul making and forces us to conclude that these SG will not cease..... But the SG believers can still justify that by saying " oh they will when Jesus return!". So how do I explain that? I don't think this is clear enough to me.

 

[Jazer]

Can you raised the dead?

With or without a defibulator?

 

[beloved57]

For the most part the signs ceased at the close of the apostles ministries..

2 cor 12:12

Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

 

[hisbeloved67]

- “but when that which is perfect is come…”
(Literally –“when the perfect thing comes…&#8221 This is the “when”.

Two thoughts are prominent as to what occasion Paul is speaking of:

-The return of Christ -OR-
-The completion of the revelation of the word of God.

(The person of Christ can in no fashion be forced contextually into 1Cor. 13:10. Some settle for “eschatological innuendo”, both in using the phrase “the end of time” in reference to this passage and by attempting to infer that some words in the passage carry some eschatological “overtones”. They don’t! It is from this viewpoint – the end of time - that I shall approach verse 10.)

The completion of God’s revelation is the proper explanation for verse 10. There is NOTHING in this context to suggest that Paul is speaking in regards to the end of time (or Christ) and there is EVERYTHING to suggest that he is speaking about knowledge, prophecy, and the “perfection” of it !!

Paul first compares a “that which” is perfect with a “that which” that is in part, with an underlying contrast. This indicates that the two things Paul speaks of here are the same type of thing, although they not of the same quality. The first “that which” is still “in part” (to ek merous) and has the quality of being incomplete, while the second “that which” is “perfect” (to teleion), and has the quality of coming to be completed, lacking nothing. An example of this would be to compare a partially inflated tire with a properly inflated tire – the same type of thing are compared, but they are not of the same quality.

The word “perfect” is rendered from the Greek word “teleios”. This word signifies a person or thing that has reached its end, finished, complete, perfect; wanting nothing necessary to completeness. (Thayer & Vine both referenced.)

This defining of “teleios” as something coming to completeness is supported by the continuing context of the passage. In the next 3 verses Paul uses -2- analogies to exemplify exactly this. Please note that the context is set in verse 10. The analogies must clarify what has already been said in verse 10. (Analogies do not set the context, but are given to exemplify it.)

The first analogy uses an example of physical development coming to “completeness” and the second analogy uses an example of cognitive development coming to “completeness”. Let us look at Paul’s discourse in verses 11-13.

Paul’s first analogy – verse 11:

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.

In this verse Paul describes the process of maturing – the transition of a child becoming an adult. Paul states in this analogy of verse 11 that once maturity is finished – that is, once the development process has come to completion - then at that time something is done away with. Here it is childish ways that are done away with. That which once served a purpose ceases - the process is finished/complete. (Notice -“that which” was “in part” was an immature person– “that which” is “perfected” is the mature person.)

The application made with the revelation of God’s word is this: once a man is full grown/mature (once the word is fully revealed and confirmed), the childish ways (ei. spiritual gifts) which served to bring man to maturity (the spiritual gifts used to reveal and confirm God’s word) are done away/cease. The purpose of the means of revelation (spiritual gifts) has been completed!

Paul’s second analogy - verse 12:

12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.

In this second analogy of verse 12 Paul uses looking in a mirror to present the same idea of coming to a conclusion or finality, but logically or intellectually in this example.

The word “darkly”, or “riddle” in some translations, is from the Greek word “ainigmati” literally meaning “in an enigma”. A riddle is something to be figured out or solved. It requires a logical process over time to come to the solution – a little part of knowledge is gained at a time. When the process of thought or logic is complete, finished, or “perfect”, a solution is then given for the riddle, or an answer is given for a puzzle. When the answer is given, the logical process used to obtain that finish ceases – it has served its purpose! (“That which” was “in part” could not solve the “riddle” – “that which” is “complete” will solve it.)

Paul says they were seeing “darkly”; everything was not yet seen clearly or revealed. But when that which is perfect is come, the “darkness” or “riddle” is solved, and we will see clearly or “face to face”. Please follow what Paul is saying here. In this analogy “face-to-face” is talking about how one sees in the mirror, not WHO one sees in the mirror.

They did not see all things clearly before the “riddle” was revealed – it was “dark”. But “then”, when “perfection” has come (or as in this analogy, a solution to the riddle) we will see all clearly (we will understand) like we were looking at ourselves in the mirror – face to face. Paul is telling how well we will understand (“see&#8221 once “perfection” has come.

In verse 12b Paul finishes this thought by stating that now he knows (literally, is taking in knowledge) only in part – but “then” he shall know fully or completely. How well shall we know? Paul says “even as also I was fully known”. This is in the mirror – face to face. Paul is telling us how well we are going to know “then”. (cf. James 1:25.)

13 But now abideth (MENO) faith, hope, and love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
Paul concludes this chapter with the same topic he began it with - by speaking of love (the “best way&#8221. The close of the chapter presents another contrast & another hurdle for those who claim that SGs were not to cease after the completion of God’s revelation.

The word for “abideth” here is the Greek word meno, which means: to remain, abide, not to depart, to last, endure.

Paul says that only –3- things “Now abide” – faith, hope, and love. This is in direct contrast to those things that would cease – tongues, knowledge, & prophecy (SGs)! The point Paul makes to the gift-loving Corinthians is that faith, hope, & love will remain – these are permanent, while the SGs will cease – SGs will not remain.

Now, of these three things, only one will continue into eternity. When we are with Christ in eternity, faith and hope will have ended. Only love will last into eternity.
So, here is Paul's "timeline":

- Miraculous gifts will cease, but faith, hope and love will abide until eternity begins, and of these three, love is the greatest as it will continue even into eternity.

Now the thing that makes this problematic for SG proponents is the view that miraculous gifts will continue until “the end of time” (Christ returns and takes us away to be "like Him.") Such a view completely obliterates the comparison Paul is making and forces us to conclude that miraculous gifts will not cease, fail, vanish away, or be done away at all, but will “abide” as faith, hope, and love are to.

The “end of time” view is in direct contradiction of the point that Paul closes this chapter with.

“But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.”ASV

I wish to use scripture to prove that the Gifts have not ceased,since I believe that you are a person of integrity I will assume that you will read what i have posted before replying.

I believe that we must use scripture to interpret scripture, And yes Paul did indicate, that what started at Pentecost would end,but he said that it would not end, until that which was perfect has come , when does this
perfection happen?

Notice in I Cor.13:12 Paul goes on to explain by saying,For now we see through a glass,darkley:but then face to face:now I know in part;but then shall I know even as I am known,.where does this "then" happen?

answer: when we see him face to face at the resurrection.

1John 3:2 Beloved,now are we the son's of God,and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And again Paul talks about the perfection which comes at the resurrection in phil 3:11-12 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.Not as though I had already attained,either were already perfect.

Although the gifts did not manifest until the day of Pentecost ,When was the gift of prophecy and other gifts given?

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, when he asended up on high,he led captivity captive,and gave gifts to men.

what was the reason for the gifts?

Eph 4:11 And he gave some,apostles; and some prophets;and some evangelist; and some pastors and teachers
12 For the perfecting of the saints,for the work of the ministry,for the edifying of the body of Christ.

How long will he be giving gifts to man?

Eph 4:13 Till we all come into the unity of the faith,and of the knowledge of the Son of God.unto a perfect man,unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

Now I want to talk about another list gifts that are mentioned in 1cor 12:8-10 word of wisdom,word of knowledge,faith,gifts of healing,miracles,prophecy,discerning of spirits,tongues and,interpretation of tongues

Who are these gifts of the spirit for? Paul say's they are for the body of Christ,and that there is only one body,
and one spirit.

1cor12:12-13 For as the body is one,and hath many members,and all the members of that one body,being many, are one body,so also is Christ.For by one Spirit,we are all baptized into one body.

We all know that in Acts 2:1-8 is where we see the day of Pentecost begin, which is where the gift of the Spirit of promise is first given.
Then Theophilus in Acts 2:37-38 tells us about a group of people after Pentecost, that want the gift of the spirit of promise too, he goes on to tell them in Acts2:39 For this promise is unto you and your children, and to all that are afar off,even as many as the Lord shall call.


So going backwards now, If the gifts of the Spirit have ceased,then that means.

1. The Lord is no longer calling people
2.there is one body of Christ during Pauls time and one body of our time which equals two bodies of christ
3 there are two spirits
4.Christians have already been perfected
5.The body of Christ no longer needs to be edified,or built up
6.the work of the ministry has ended.specifically,evangelist,teachers and pastors.

This would mean that all pastors teachers and evangelist are working without a gift and thereby are working through their flesh,because these
were listed as gifts too and because according to you,faith hope and love is all there is left.

Every bit of this in red contradicts all of the above scripture referrences above, so please explain again why you think that the gifts have ceased.

 

[rev.hewett]

I did read all of that last post except I tend to have issues when the beginning of the point starts out with something I completely disagree with. "that which is perfect"? I do not believe that to be the condition coming as Christ. For a couple of reasons... 1. I've read it in the most original of Greek as we can produce (which that specific scripture is one of the most reliable Greek passages in our gk new testaments). It clearly says that which has come, not that which has come again (which would better indicate the second coming). Otherwise Christ has already come and this scripture cannot be talking about Him. 2. Because of that same thinking I do not believe it is the Spirit either since it is the Spirit's actions that are being discussed. So what is it? Considering all of this, I believe that which is perfect to be the Word of God manifest. The scripture as we have them today, complete and full and, as truly inspired, rare faultless and perfect.

 

[rev.hewett]

3rd sentence says "condition coming of Christ" yeah.... Down fall of typing fast on an iPad. Definitely meant second coming

 

[Biblicist]

When will the signs cease?

Unfortunately for the OP he has asked the wrong question if he desires to question the legitimacy of the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit (1Co 12:7-11) being for the Body of Christ today. It is admittedly a common mistake that many cessationists make in that they unwittingly define the 9 MotS as signs as with their quaint use of the expression “sign-gifts”.

Having been a Full Gospel believer since 1974 I have been able to witness all of the MotS but I have never to my recollection ever seen a “sign” in operation. Having said this I have no doubt that the Lord uses signs and wonders in unreached ‘greenfield’ areas but as I live in a large metropolis I doubt if I will ever see one in my lifetime – and why would I?

It can be hard for the average cessationist to understand the power of God in the life of not only the corporate setting of the church but also in the life of the individual believer; sadly it also seems that many cannot grasp that the reason that the Father has given us the Spirit is that he can better minister to the Body as a whole – they are given to the Body as the result of a loving and caring God.

It is my view that cesssationism was removed as a serious form of theology by the mid 90’s and of course cessationists only serve to harm their cause by asking the wrong questions and even worse by answering their own questions with the wrong answers.

 

[rev.hewett]

Biblicist,
Just wondering if you thought about this the same way I do in that some people that hear that the words "sign gifts" are thinking "Spiritual gifts"? My implication here is that there is a severe difference. Where I believe the Spirit still gifts us in certain ways (that we don't exactly understand) in order to carry out our life's ministry, I don't believe that these "sign gifts" still exist. This is largely due to the post I gave before yours. Of course, by sign gifts, I do reference the manifestations & I often use the same term.

Is it just me, though? People discuss gifts like they are all encompassing & they're not. The manifestations as given in the Biblical accounts were given for the purpose of the initial spread of the Gospel. Thought I say this without limiting the power of the Spirit, I don't think they exist anymore. I don't know for sure & will not speak against the possibility if needed to be used in some distant country - for the same purpose they were used in the Bible, of course. Now, however, the gifts that are given are internal in order to not do the initial spread of the Gospel but for the continuing spread of the Gospel. And yet, when people get on the topic the argument ends up being "There are gifts!" .... "No there's not! Gifts no longer exist!" Maybe it's just me ...

 

[Biblicist]

Rev.hewet (# 15),

Just wondering if you thought about this the same way I do in that some people that hear that the words "sign gifts" are thinking "Spiritual gifts"?

It seems that for many the phrase means what it means unless it does not mean what they want it to mean so they tend to make it mean what they need it to mean – this presumes that they in fact understand what they think it means in the first place!

I agree that with the vast majority of people, be they cessationist and sadly even continuist, that they will associate this term with the 9 MotS. I mentioned in my previous post the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit as per 1Co 12:7-11 (plus the 8 functions or Offices of 1Co 12:27-31) are not meant to be a sign to anyone and they are in fact quite different to ‘Signs & Wonders’.

Even though I have heard thousands give a word in a tongue during a meeting and much the same number providing an interpretation along with those who prophesy; I do not recall ever seeing the Lord providing a ‘sign or wonder’ within any congregational meeting that I have ever been in and I don’t really ever expect to see one in a congregation here in Australia – but again in unreached areas where the Full Gospel is being preached undoubtedly such things would occur though on a limited and restricted basis.

The term itself is more than just a bit anachronistic in that not only is it is an unbiblical term but it adds further confusion by adding in the unwarranted used of ‘sign’; it also sends people off on a tangent by improperly referring to these 9 MotS as being ‘spiritual gifts’ which is not something that the Scriptures refer to them as. These 9 MotS are not something that the Spirit of God gives or hands to someone as they are His outworkings or manifestations through the individual believer.
In addition to this, I would like to think that those who support the view that is popularly taught through many so called ‘spiritual gift’ seminars that God gives every individual at birth some spiritual gift, that it is solely the viewpoint of the cessationist but all too often it is admittedly often promoted even by Full Gospel believers.

For those who still hold to the outworkings of the Holy Spirit as being ‘sign-gifts’ the whole topic of the purpose and function of the Third Person of the Trinity will only endup being a bewildering maze; I would go as far as to say that unless they shake free of this position that they will probably never be able to embrace the fullness of the Spirit.

-----------

I agree with your understanding of teleios in 1Co 13:10 in that it can only refer to the coming Kingdom of God; the work of Fee, Grudem and Carson in the late 80's and early 90's regarding this passage was probably the final nail to the classic cessationist understanding of this passage.

Barry

 

[Lamb's Wife]

After the completion of the NT canon, or either when Paul fulfilled the works that he was called to do, or is it the last day when our body become resurrected and or Jesus' return?

Paul say they will ceased in 1 Cor 13:5:8, when that which is perfect has come... that which is perfect is what? Is it the completion of the NT canon or Jesus' return?

Who in here can speak in tongues or prophesy? Why should I believe you? Can you drink deadly poison thing and it shall not harm you? Can you raised the dead? Heal the blind? Cleanse the leper?

1 John 2:27 says the disciple had the Holy Spirit teach them all things and need not any man to teach them. Do you know all things?

What are your thoughts about this?

Yes we are given to know all things, nothing is hid from us. But that not being your main point, I believe that "Faith" is the topic in your question.

Works and "signs" don't help anyone's faith. And only evil people who don't have faith seek after a sign.

It is important that we have "perfect faith".

(Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Perfect Love casts out fear, and no fearful person has faith. So it is Faith Hope and Love that makes us perfect.

No sign is needed then. And one shouldn't seek after one; This is the only one we need

(Mat 12:38) Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
(Mat 12:39) But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
(Mat 12:40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

[Jazer]

Jesus says greater works shall be done to whoever believe in me. Was Jesus speaking only to the disciples?

Yes, He was speaking to the disciples. There are no works for those who are saved. These are people who live Holy and Sanctifed before God. The works they do, or God does in and through them, shows that they are approved by God and are trustworthy. Esp now this is the rapture generation, and to qualify for the rapture you will need to be without spot, blemish or wrinkle before God. People will need to be washed cleansed and sanctifed. The wedding garment means they have sanctifed their flesh before God and they are living Holy before God.

 

[Biblicist]

Lamb’s Wife,

Even though you have adopted the notion that the outworkings of the Spirit of God are in some way meant to be ‘signs’ I would have to ask you two questions regarding your following unorthodox statement:

Perfect Love casts out fear, and no fearful person has faith. So it is Faith Hope and Love that makes us perfect.
No sign is needed then. And one shouldn't seek after one; This is the only one we need

When the Spirit of God provides someone with a word of discernment or knowledge regarding a particular situation, how is this deemed to be a sign, and if so a sign to who?

If faith, hope and love makes us perfect and we are not to seek or allow the Spirit of God to work through us, why are we are told in Eph 6 to put on the whole armour of God which comprises 7 weapons with not only the Word of God but that we are also to pray in tongues (pray in the Spirit).