When Will Christ Return?

Achilles6129 said:

Christ says there will be great wars, famines, pestilences, etc., in various places, prior to his return. Says these things are the beginning of the birth pains. The Holocaust (and WWII) is one of these signs.

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NO THEY WERE NOT, BUT WE ARE NOW IN THE BIRTH PAINS NOW.

Achilles6129 said:

Sorry eclipsenow, but I totally disagree with your view of Matthew 24.

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That's fine, but as you don't have any evidence for the temple being any other temple than the one they were looking at with their own eyes, and asking Jesus about directly, I'm quite happy to disagree with you too!

Be sure to evaluate 'what would a re-occurrence look like?' thread as it has so much to do with this. And 'Haggee and Prager in unity'.

--Inter

see profile for live contact on Sundays

Achilles6129 said:

Christ says there will be great wars, famines, pestilences, etc., in various places, prior to his return. Says these things are the beginning of the birth pains. The Holocaust (and WWII) is one of these signs.

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WW II was the great tribulation. The Battle of Ar Mageddon is next.

In Matthew 24 where he talks about 'these things' it's the end of the temple. There were wars and rebellions and awful persecution of the Jews (and then Christians) under Rome. However, if we read Revelation's more general description of these 'Last Days' (since Acts 2 and counting) we see that, hidden in the picture language of Revelation, wars are a common theme. That is, those 4 horsemen are not specific, but generic, they describe every war that has every crossed some of God's people, whether directed at us or whether we just happened to be caught in the cross-fire of great nations.

Achilles6129 said:

Actually, I can definitively prove that it is talking about future tribulation, and have so. It's just a matter of interpretation of the verses.

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Matthew 24:29
[ The Coming of the Son of Man ] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Mark 13:24
[ The Coming of the Son of Man ] “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

The tribulation is probably the 70 AD tribulation. Matthew has wacked in the word immediately, imo.. which would mean that the day of the Lord is expected after 70 AD, whereas Mark has it as 'in those days, after that tribulation, which would still be after the 70 AD tribulation, but in those days.. in the latter days obviously. It depends whether there is to be a tribulation worse than WW2? That would probably be a nuclear war, and the bible dosn't say anything about that, as far as i know. But Jesus says that the days will be like the days of Noah, and like the days of Lot... that wasn't a nuclear war, but a time of carrying on as usual.. no mention of a great tribulation. So it looks to me that the Lord returns first in a time like that of Noah, and then the day of the Lord happens, after tribulation.

hiscosmicgoldfish said:

Matthew 24:29
[ The Coming of the Son of Man ] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

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Exactly! "Those days" "That day" = Return of the Lord.

Mark 13:24
[ The Coming of the Son of Man ] “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

The tribulation is probably the 70 AD tribulation. Matthew has wacked in the word immediately, imo..

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There's a view from Sydney Anglicans that I'm not entirely sold on. It's by Peter Bolt and other theologians down here (Dumbrell) that suggest the apocalyptic language here about the Son of Man coming into his father's glory is actually Jesus ascension into the presence of the Ancient of Days, NOT his return. It's a reference to the gospel. The sun & moon stuff is the language of spiritual rejuvenation, of new kingdoms coming and going, an Old testament reference to major spiritual changes. And the 'angels' going to all the earth is, well, us. God's messengers. (Remember the greek is somewhat ambiguous). That is, this is a gospel statement a week before the gospel events Jesus is describing that eventually lead to the destruction of the temple: because HIS body, the REAL temple, was destroyed and 'rebuilt' in 3 days.

No, they're not Full Preterists. They just don't think the gospels talk all that much about the return of the Lord. Some of them would say that this is about the changing of the kingdoms, from the Old National Theocracy covenant to the new spiritual covenant.

But there are other Sydney Anglican lecturers at Moore College that disagree, that say these passages have 2 events in mind: the death of Jesus (leading to the end of the temple) which then eventually guarantees the end of this world itself. In other words, AD70, then flashing forward to judgement day. The end of 'these things' (temple they can see) and then 'that day'. For now, I think I side with this second option. It's probably because I don't know my Old Testament well enough though!

Steve Petersen said:

Nope. If it didn't happen during the Holocaust, it never will.

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Interesting. Do you think the world will always continue as it is then? Or do you think there will be some kind of intervention by God that's not what we typically think of as the second coming?

Nilloc said:

Interesting. Do you think the world will always continue as it is then? Or do you think there will be some kind of intervention by God that's not what we typically think of as the second coming?

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I think we will continue to progress, things continue to get better. In every measurable way, in the aggregate, quality of life for the world's population is improving.

The Second Coming theology is a result of the hopes of an oppressed and powerless people being cast into the future.

Achilles6129 said:

Sorry, gotta disagree

It's written all over the NT.

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I mean, after all, what are you going to believe? Your interpretation of the NT or your own lying eyes?

more important is not when he will return, but whether He will find righteousness on the earth in His returning

Luke 18:7-8 "shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith(ie faithfulness to the good) on the earth?"

Blessings

Steve Petersen said:

I mean, after all, what are you going to believe? Your interpretation of the NT or your own lying eyes?

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The Lord is going to return; if we are to believe the bible at all! He is not going to just sit around waiting for it to happen. Now others might disagree with my Amil "All in one event" eschatology, but I'm sure they'd agree that the bible at least says the Lord is going to return, and that there will be a Judgement Day of some sort, eventually. (I think it's all the one event).

Check out all the verses you have to explain away...

Covenant Amils see 'Judgement Day' as this one, huge, inescapable and instantaneous day. From the explicitly clear statements in the New Testament about the Last Day we know that when Jesus returns, the dead are raised, all is revealed and judged, and sin, Satan, and death are done away with. Heaven meets earth in a glorious new reality where we will exist in perfect harmony with our Lord for all eternity! There's just no room for a "half eternal, half mortal" merely geopolitical reign of Jesus on earth. The language around the Lord's return is too dramatic and final for that.

1: BOTH BELIEVERS AND UNBELIEVERS ARE RAISED TOGETHER ON THE LAST DAY AND THEN SAVED OR JUDGED!
(not 1000 years apart)
John 6:39 = Christians are raised for eternal life on the LAST DAY. Not 1007 years before the last day: not before some 7 year 'tribulation' and 1000 year "Millennium". We are raised on THE LAST DAY!
John 11:24 = Martha knows Lazarus will rise on the LAST DAY
John 12:48 = Jesus Judges on the LAST DAY
John 5:28 = All raised together for either salvation or judgement
Luke 17:24-28 = Jesus return will be OBVIOUS and inescapable: like lightning across the sky. Will be like days of Noah, when they were either taken and saved or left behind and DESTROYED.
Or like Lot, who were either saved or DESTROYED. In none of these examples were those 'Left Behind' able to continue their lives for 7 years! They were judged immediately. Noah didn't enter the ark and then 1000 years passed before the flood!
Matt 25:31-46 = the sorting of the sheep and the goats.
Matt 13:24-29 = weeds judged and burned and wheat saved.
1 Thess 4:13-17 = Christians are raised and saved forever.
1 Thess 5 = the ungodly are immediately judged!
2 Tim 4:1 = judge the living and the dead
Acts 17:31 = Jesus resurrection is PROOF that He will be the judge. (Because, I take it, resurrection demonstrates God's power over death and also precedes the final judgement!)
Psalm 2: his judgement will be sudden and will destroy all God's enemies
Matt: 16:27 = "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done."


2. SATAN AND HIS MINIONS ALSO JUDGED
Rev 20:10 = at the end of this age the Devil is destroyed.
(Millennium = Symobolic of the perfect amount of time between the gospel events of Jesus incarnation and Jesus return as judge).

3. DEATH BANISHED, ETERNITY USHERED IN
As we have already seen above we are raised and then Judged to be innocent in Christ or damned forever. Then we are eternal beings!
Mark 10:30 = "in the age to come eternal life."
1 Cor 15:26 = "The last enemy to be destroyed is death".

4. DAY OF LORD = NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH
2 Peter 3:10-13 = DAY OF LORD = like a thief = "a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells."

5. THIS *REALLY* MESSES WITH MILLENNIAL IDEAS - THERE IS NO NEED OF MARRIAGE OR BABIES!
Luke 20:35: "But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection of the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,"
The Millennium cannot have both immortal resurrected Christians living alongside mortal sinners because:
* access to the age to come is via resurrection
* even if we 'smuggled them in' (so to speak) after a generation there would be no more mortals because there are no babies!

6. MORTAL BEINGS CANNOT ENTER THE 'ARRIVED' KINGDOM OF GOD!
(This is in contrast to the 'current' kingdom of God, the church, which is a spiritual kingdom 'not of this world'. When the kingdom actually arrives physically, mortality is put behind us).
1 Corinthians 15
"50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
* This means resurrection = changed into our immortal bodies = Death conquered at the SAME TIME as the Lord's return.

So what to do with the Millennium, and indeed, the whole book of Revelation?

My first recommendation would be Revelation Unwrapped by John Richardson. This is available from bookdepository.co.uk quite cheap, and is a short, clear book taking the Symbolist approach to Revelation. That is, unlike modern 'futurists', Revelation is full of biblical symbols and is not dependent on modern newspaper headlines and geopolitics to understand. It's all about the gospel, and is a cracker of a sermon encouraging all Christians in all ages that have ever had to live under suffering.

The next book I recommend is 'Apocalypse Now and then' by Dr Paul Barnett, which is a bit partial preterist and a bit Symbolist.
Apocalypse now and then: reading Revelation today: Amazon.co.uk: Paul BARNETT: Books
Paul Barnett sees some things like the beasts of Revelation as being historical Roman Emperors, but again I'm a little reluctant to believe the book is only understandable with a Phd in History! But he is very helpful in most chapters and does interpret a lot of the bible's Symbolism.

Or if you don't have the time buy and read these books, try the free sermons at Sydney Anglicans. The following link has sermons listed by book of the bible. Scan down to the end and download the sermons. You'll be amazed at the consistency of reading Revelation with the REST of the New Testament!
Christmas Message 2011 | Sydneyanglicans.net

Or if you REALLY want to go deep, check out the free audio lectures by Dr Kim Riddlebarger. There's probably about 30 hours of material entitled "Amillennialism 101" on the down the right hand column here.
Riddleblog - The Latest Post

Steve Petersen said:

I think we will continue to progress, things continue to get better. In every measurable way, in the aggregate, quality of life for the world's population is improving.

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And you see that as a natural progression, i.e., God isn’t causing it directly?

Steve Petersen said:

The Second Coming theology is a result of the hopes of an oppressed and powerless people being cast into the future.

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I’m hardly an expert on this, so maybe you could help, but wasn’t that the cause of the initial belief of Judaism in the messiah? My understanding of the development of Judaism was that they never thought they would be able to overthrow their pagan oppressors, so the only way they would ever be freed was if God directly intervened with an anointed leader.

I’m convinced that the coming that the Olivet Discourse talks about is about the destruction of Jerusalem, not what we typically think of as the Second Coming. The idea has crossed my mind (I’m not saying I believe this) that the whole basis for Paul’s belief in a Second Coming was actually a misunderstanding of the oral traditions that would become the Olivet Discourse. There are obvious parallels between the discourse and the Thessalonian epistles; is it possible Paul heard them and misunderstood them so that he thought Jesus was literally going to return on a cloud? Again, just a thought that has occurred to me.

Nilloc said:

And you see that as a natural progression, i.e., God isn’t causing it directly?


I’m hardly an expert on this, so maybe you could help, but wasn’t that the cause of the initial belief of Judaism in the messiah? My understanding of the development of Judaism was that they never thought they would be able to overthrow their pagan oppressors, so the only way they would ever be freed was if God directly intervened with an anointed leader.

I’m convinced that the coming that the Olivet Discourse talks about is about the destruction of Jerusalem, not what we typically think of as the Second Coming. The idea has crossed my mind (I’m not saying I believe this) that the whole basis for Paul’s belief in a Second Coming was actually a misunderstanding of the oral traditions that would become the Olivet Discourse. There are obvious parallels between the discourse and the Thessalonian epistles; is it possible Paul heard them and misunderstood them so that he thought Jesus was literally going to return on a cloud? Again, just a thought that has occurred to me.

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i'd like to preface by saying that according to John 6 and 11
the promised future Resurrection of the dead,
which is at His Coming, must occur on the very last day,
no matter how long that day is (as some think it is 1000 years)

IMO, paul was complete in his understanding.
the english does not do justice to the greek in 1Thes4
it's a mirror of 1Cor15.
and "up" is not mentioned at all in ether, in the greek

so 1Thes4 teaches thus:
at His Coming, the Lord brings with Him the dead in Christ,
and He raises them here first, as pomised
and then He changes the elect on earth into spirit beings
and siezes together His elect on earth with the just raise dead in Christ...right here.

up is not written in the greek. it's just not there
air is a simple synonym for pneuma (spirit),
which is what we are all changed to, at His Coming (we shall be like the angels)
and cloud, Paul uses that ina much different way in Heb12:1...ie, a mass multitude.

Christ is Coming with a mass mulitude,
the clouds of heaven are that multiude.

so Paul is saying that at Christ's Coming, He comes with a mass multitude (the dead in Christ)
and He raises them here...right here on earth as promised...
they walk the eath again...YEA!
and THEN He changes the elect on earth into spirit beings like the angels / those He just raised
and then gatheres all elect on earth together with those just raised,
into one great big collective massive cloud of witnesses.

this is in perfect alignment with the Olivette discourse, 1Thes4, 1Cor15,
and seen in it's parts in Rev11/14/19/20 (at least)


this shows the "timing" of His Coming to be on the last day, because the dead are raised.

2000 years and counting....

Romans 13:11 Paul says our 'salvation is nearer than we first believed.'

Honestly, did he expect Christ to return 10,000 years into the future and somehow it is closer than that? what, 4000, 3000, 2000 years from Paul?