When theology and reason collide.

[Touma]

Christianity is sometimes very hard for me to accept. There are a lot things in Scripture that simply don't make sense. Inb4, God's ways are not our ways. His thinking not our thinking. God works in mysterious ways. Those don't work for me. I believe that if we are made in God's likeness, and we are rational beings, then God is a rational being who does things for a purpose.



In Western Christianity we are taught a few things. I'll make a list of them.

* God is all powerful, all present, and all knowing.
* God is holy. His holiness requires Him to punish evil.
* Sin and evil entered the world because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve (if you believe a literal interpretation of Genesis)
* Before Adam and Eve sinned, Satan/Devil/Lucifer rebelled against God and was cast to earth.

So far, we all believe this right?

Here is my issue. If God is all knowing, then He knew that Satan would rebel against Him. Why would God create Satan with the ability to sin? Why would he create him at all?

Further, if God is Holy and requires justice, why didn't he punish Satan right after the rebellion. Surely God is powerful enough to bound Satan. So why didn't He? Why would he allow Satan to be unleashed upon the world to cause havoc, pain, death, and sorrow?

John Piper claims that the ultimate goal of creation is worship. We are to enjoy God. That is why he made us...To worship Him. He also claims that God seeks to see his glory displayed through punishing sin and redeeming sinners.

A lot of Christians believe this to be true. God is glorified when a sinner goes to hell, because of God's holiness, and is glorified when a Saint is redeemed because of God's grace.

If God get glory from punishing sin AND redeeming other sinners, then why wouldn't he have 1) Punished Satan at the beginning (fulfilling his Holy and Righteous Wrath) which would 2) Allow man to never have sinned which leads to 3) all of mankind worshiping God and never knowing sin, pain, death, hurt, sorrow...

I'd like to see some honest answers to this. Please no "it is beyond our understanding" type of answers.

 

[MehGuy]

IDK he likes drama.

 

[Going Merry]

Hm I never personally had a problem with this.
I know He allowed it all to happen because He wanted to save mankind from their sins.

Sure you can question his motives for allowing such things to happen, but He thought it was good to allow mankind to fall away.

Also to justice thing, just because he held his justice at bay for a time, doesn't mean He won't do it

 

[Voluntary Joe]

God had a very good reason for allowing His creation to fall. By allowing His creation to fall God gave people the ability to make choices. Love, obedience and worship have no meaning without choice. Had God created everything forced to follow His will, then there would be no love, obedience or worship.

Why we were created in the first place is another interesting question. I don't currently have Biblical references for this, but my theory (and it is just a theory at this point) is that God wants to be worshiped. God deserves to be worshiped and God knows this. God wants to be glorified because He deserves to be glorified. God wants to be loved. I believe God created the universe for the purpose of being worshiped and loved. However God didn't create robots because that would be meaningless. If the worshiper is forced to worship it has no value, but if the worshiper comes to the conclusion to worship it does have value. Love is not love unless it is a choice, obedience is not obedience unless it is a choice. By allowing people to live and make choices God is gaining true love, worship, glorification and obedience from those who choose to follow Him.

All relationships grant reciprocal value to each party, God gains love (because it's not love without choice) and we gain love. We are loved by God and we love God. We gain eternal life and God gains worship and glorification. We gain fellowship with others like ourselves and God gains obedience to His perfect will. People often wonder about suffering in the world and what about those who God knew weren't going to follow Him. As I said above without the ability to make choices, everything God gains from us is meaningless, however making choices implies the ability to make wrong choices. Bad choices come with bad consequences, the suffering in the world is the result of the accumulated bad choices of mankind. This is necessary in order for love, obedience and worship to have value. As for the people who God knew wouldn't choose Him, this is also necessary because if God had only created those whom He knew would choose Him then again those things which He gains are meaningless because even though we chose Him we would not have had the ability to understand what it meant to not choose Him thus nullifying the meaning and significance of the choice in the first place.

 

[Im_A]

Christianity is sometimes very hard for me to accept. There are a lot things in Scripture that simply don't make sense. Inb4, God's ways are not our ways. His thinking not our thinking. God works in mysterious ways. Those don't work for me. I believe that if we are made in God's likeness, and we are rational beings, then God is a rational being who does things for a purpose.



In Western Christianity we are taught a few things. I'll make a list of them.

* God is all powerful, all present, and all knowing.
* God is holy. His holiness requires Him to punish evil.
* Sin and evil entered the world because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve (if you believe a literal interpretation of Genesis)
* Before Adam and Eve sinned, Satan/Devil/Lucifer rebelled against God and was cast to earth.

So far, we all believe this right?

Here is my issue. If God is all knowing, then He knew that Satan would rebel against Him. Why would God create Satan with the ability to sin? Why would he create him at all?

Further, if God is Holy and requires justice, why didn't he punish Satan right after the rebellion. Surely God is powerful enough to bound Satan. So why didn't He? Why would he allow Satan to be unleashed upon the world to cause havoc, pain, death, and sorrow?

John Piper claims that the ultimate goal of creation is worship. We are to enjoy God. That is why he made us...To worship Him. He also claims that God seeks to see his glory displayed through punishing sin and redeeming sinners.

A lot of Christians believe this to be true. God is glorified when a sinner goes to hell, because of God's holiness, and is glorified when a Saint is redeemed because of God's grace.

If God get glory from punishing sin AND redeeming other sinners, then why wouldn't he have 1) Punished Satan at the beginning (fulfilling his Holy and Righteous Wrath) which would 2) Allow man to never have sinned which leads to 3) all of mankind worshiping God and never knowing sin, pain, death, hurt, sorrow...

I'd like to see some honest answers to this. Please no "it is beyond our understanding" type of answers.

I personally don't go for the whole...reason vs. irrationality so reason vs theology means not that much to me. I consider it a false comparison...especially when I believe religion, spirituality, faith was created by human beings.

I believe everyone is irrational and I believe that is best way to live. There is no sense to me to observe reality through a non expounding way of living that keeps me within some idea of rational bounds because it is with a so called sound theological, philosophical method. I observe and I react. I'll do it till my dying day.

So with this said, if you find inconsistencies in theology against your own conscience...you have two choices:
1. Give up faith
2. Mold your 21st century conscience with your faith and standing your ground.

The choice is yours. Good luck. I came to a similar point. After a long battle, I chose number one. That may not be the best choice for you. Again...good luck.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Christianity is sometimes very hard for me to accept. There are a lot things in Scripture that simply don't make sense. Inb4, God's ways are not our ways. His thinking not our thinking. God works in mysterious ways. Those don't work for me. I believe that if we are made in God's likeness, and we are rational beings, then God is a rational being who does things for a purpose.



In Western Christianity we are taught a few things. I'll make a list of them.

* God is all powerful, all present, and all knowing.
* God is holy. His holiness requires Him to punish evil.
* Sin and evil entered the world because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve (if you believe a literal interpretation of Genesis)
* Before Adam and Eve sinned, Satan/Devil/Lucifer rebelled against God and was cast to earth.

So far, we all believe this right?

Here is my issue. If God is all knowing, then He knew that Satan would rebel against Him. Why would God create Satan with the ability to sin? Why would he create him at all?

I would disagree. I do not think God knows what will happen. I agree that God knows everything, but I do not think the future can be known by even God because it simply hasn't happened yet. I would go more into that, but it would take a while. It's the same question with Adam and Eve? Why did God allow it, if he knew they would sin. I don't think He did know that was going to happen. I, along with many (to my surprise) believe that Jesus was "Plan B".

 

[Apollo Celestio]

You realize the bible isn't perfect, then it all falls away.

 

[hedrick]

In Western Christianity we are taught a few things. I'll make a list of them.

* God is all powerful, all present, and all knowing.

Yes, that's been the general view. Surprisingly, it's not so clear it's Scripture's. Scripture says God is in control, but it tends to have a more anthropomorphic view of him.

* God is holy. His holiness requires Him to punish evil.

This one I don't believe. I believe God can forgive freely. As far as I can tell, that's what Jesus teaches. As I see it, the purpose of Jesus death was to bring us new life, not to let God forgive us.

* Sin and evil entered the world because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve (if you believe a literal interpretation of Genesis)
* Before Adam and Eve sinned, Satan/Devil/Lucifer rebelled against God and was cast to earth.

Interestingly, Calvin didn't agree that literal death entered because of sin. I'm not quite quoting him, but let me give an argument: There's no reason to think that God ever intended us to live eternally in our current bodies. What sin does is replace a peaceful transition with death as we know it now.

I believe the second bullet is based more on Dante than Scripture. Scripture has at most hints about this kind of thing. Indeed in Gen 3, the snake is treated as super-intelligent talking snake. Note how it is punished.

Here is my issue. If God is all knowing, then He knew that Satan would rebel against Him. Why would God create Satan with the ability to sin? Why would he create him at all?

I'm not going to answer why Satan could sin, but I doubt it's any different from why we can. It has to do with what kind of people he wanted us to be. It's common to see the answer as free will, though I suspect that's oversimplifying. Since Scripture doesn't answer this, I don't feel that I need to. But God seems to have set up the world so as the allow the development of moderately autonomous persons. There may not have been another way to do that.

Further, if God is Holy and requires justice, why didn't he punish Satan right after the rebellion. Surely God is powerful enough to bound Satan. So why didn't He? Why would he allow Satan to be unleashed upon the world to cause havoc, pain, death, and sorrow?

Gen 3 has a snake, not Satan as Christians describe him. He punishes the snake. But justice for God is not a requirement for punishment, it is a requirement that he make things right. Through Christ, God has done that. He's just used a very different approach than we would.

But this is no surprise. That God has chosen to deal with sin by dying for us is something other religions can't understand. While punishment may play a role in the whole picture, let's keep the focus where Scripture does, which is on Christ as the answer.

A lot of Christians believe this to be true. God is glorified when a sinner goes to hell, because of God's holiness, and is glorified when a Saint is redeemed because of God's grace.

Calvin says this, but I'm not sure he means what you may think he means. Calvin tries to be careful not to go beyond what is revealed in Scripture. We don't know exactly why God made the world the way he did. Calvin is convinced than when we finally know it, we'll see that God's purpose brings glory to him. I most certainly don't believe that God glories in punishing people. He presumably does glory in bringing good out of evil. Punishment may be part of that, but God isn't like a human who gets great satisfaction from getting revenge.

 

[Nekoda]

Christianity is sometimes very hard for me to accept. There are a lot things in Scripture that simply don't make sense. Inb4, God's ways are not our ways. His thinking not our thinking. God works in mysterious ways. Those don't work for me. I believe that if we are made in God's likeness, and we are rational beings, then God is a rational being who does things for a purpose.



In Western Christianity we are taught a few things. I'll make a list of them.

* God is all powerful, all present, and all knowing.
* God is holy. His holiness requires Him to punish evil.
* Sin and evil entered the world because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve (if you believe a literal interpretation of Genesis)
* Before Adam and Eve sinned, Satan/Devil/Lucifer rebelled against God and was cast to earth.

So far, we all believe this right?

Per your bullet points:

1) Where does Scripture state that God is "all present", to everyone, in every circumstance and at all times and places?

2) Where does Scripture state that God's holiness *requires* that He punish sin? Doesn't He say: "I desire mercy, not sacrifice"?

3) The idea of inherited sin, or inherited sin nature is interestingly not found in Judaism. Nor did Jesus introduce it while walking the earth. Sin "inherited" from Adam and Eve is Pauline theology. Not all Christians believe his writings as authoritive nor his vision as without question.

4) Has it ever crossed your mind that Satan did his first sin at the very moment he lied to Eve? At that time - whatever a "snake" was - it wasn't moving on it's belly, "eating dust", nipping at heels etc. It also had not been "cast out" of the Garden of Eden up until that point.

 

[blackribbon]

God created much of his creation with free will. Satan chose to rebel...other angels chose to follow. I also don't believe that Satan made us sin...he just provided the opportunity. Without him, we still would have had the opportunity to go against God.

And each and every one of us has chosen to sin...so this isn't just about original sin...this is an individual choice. Luckily, we are given the opportunity to come back to God though.

I believe that the rational, scientific part of our life (the natural world) is only a portion of God's creation...and that there is also the spiritual level which isn't limited by "natural" laws or ordinary logic. There are too many references to experiences in the Bible that seem to cross into a different "world" than we live in.

God could have created us without the ability to sin...He just didn't.

 

[Going Merry]

pfft theology
pfft reason

 

[MacFall]

* God is all powerful, all present, and all knowing.

Yes.

* God is holy. His holiness requires Him to punish evil.

That is a minority interpretation of some rather obscure passages. God is God. He can do whatever he wants. And apparently, it pleases him to be merciful.

* Sin and evil entered the world because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve (if you believe a literal interpretation of Genesis)

I believe that Adam's sin created an inescapable tendency to pursue sin. It did not actually create sin in the world. I do not believe that man ever had the power to corrupt that which God made pure, which power is implied in the idea that Adam actually made the world become full of sin.

No; Adam lived in Eden in a state of grace. The world outside was a natural world. Adam's sin caused him and Eve to be cast out of Eden and into the natural world, in a body now subject to pain and death. The sin was in him and Eve, which meant that he could not remain in Eden. It's not as if all the goodness of the world melted away because of Adam's choice.

* Before Adam and Eve sinned, Satan/Devil/Lucifer rebelled against God and was cast to earth.

That's not in the Bible anywhere. There are only allusions to an account like that in the Book of Enoch, which is not canon. We don't know when the angels rebelled or what the specific effects of that rebellion on our world were. We wouldn't even have any particular reason to believe in the existence of Satan if Jesus himself had not spoken to (or rather, at) him. Satan gets way too much theological attention, and way too much credit. I'm pretty sure that even if he never existed, man would have been perfectly capable of choosing to disobey God on his own. Remember from where Paul says that sin comes: not from the devil, but from our own desires - the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.

Also, there's nothing in the Bible that clearly suggests that the serpent of Eden was Lucifer. It does leave one wondering what it could have been if it wasn't Lucifer, though.

 

[SnowyMacie]

* Before Adam and Eve sinned, Satan/Devil/Lucifer rebelled against God and was cast to earth.[/B]

That's not in the Bible anywhere. There are only allusions to an account like that in the Book of Enoch, which is not canon. We don't know when the angels rebelled or what the specific effects of that rebellion on our world were. We wouldn't even have any particular reason to believe in the existence of Satan if Jesus himself had not spoken to (or rather, at) him.

The rebellion is alluded to in Revelation.

 

[MacFall]

Alluded to, yes. Never described. The early Christians never had a consensus on whether the Book of Enoch (which is where the account exists) should be regarded as holy scripture or not; and among those that thought it should, whether the whole thing should, and if so which parts.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

In Western Christianity we are taught a few things. I'll make a list of them.

* God is all powerful, all present, and all knowing.
* God is holy. His holiness requires Him to punish evil.

It is justice that requires 'punishment'. Everything is ultimately done for the greater good.

Here is my issue. If God is all knowing, then He knew that Satan would rebel against Him. Why would God create Satan with the ability to sin? Why would he create him at all?

Angels have intellect, which necessitates free will. Satan was created because to not create him would not be loving.

Further, if God is Holy and requires justice, why didn't he punish Satan right after the rebellion. Surely God is powerful enough to bound Satan. So why didn't He? Why would he allow Satan to be unleashed upon the world to cause havoc, pain, death, and sorrow?

I believe there are many reasons. First of all, a greater good came about by the existence of evil, which is having Christ as our savior. Through His death and resurrection, we can now have a supernatural existence as part of the Body of Christ. Humanity would have fallen with or without Satan. Satan does not cause havoc, pain, death or sorrow. He has no power except to tempt.

John Piper claims that the ultimate goal of creation is worship. We are to enjoy God. That is why he made us...To worship Him. He also claims that God seeks to see his glory displayed through punishing sin and redeeming sinners.

We were created to be happy, which is found by coming closer to God, which worship is part of. God did not create us to 'worship' Him in the sense that He gains something for having creatures worship Him. We can do nothing to God and nothing adds to Him.

 

[Rhamiel]

God is love
that is what the Bible says right?

So God wanted to love mankind, but to have real love and to have someone love you back you need free will
mankind rebelled in sin, 1/3 of the angels rebelled
maybe it is just the nature of things with free will to rebell?
or that God allowed this to happen so that people would have a real choice, between Him and not Him
if there is no sin we do not really have a choice


you should read "the problem of pain" by C.S.Lewis

 

[Blank123]

honestly I don't see why "his ways are not our ways" has to be thrown out the window.

He is God. He has perfect understanding of His plans and purposes and why He allows things.

We are human. Our understanding is structured by our limited point of views and even by sin. We will never have perfect understanding this side of Heaven. Heck we don't even have perfect understanding of why one person does the things they do, and we presume to say we understand God's thoughts when He hasn't revealed them to us? That is uh... rather bold, to put it simply.

To assume that we should be able to understand perfectly as if we were God, is to assume that we should be God. Which... thats a whole other can of worms to be addressed another day.

 

[ulu]

I agree.

when under stress i repeat myself
when under stress i repeat myself

 

[MacFall]

honestly I don't see why "his ways are not our ways" has to be thrown out the window.

He is God. He has perfect understanding of His plans and purposes and why He allows things.

We are human. Our understanding is structured by our limited point of views and even by sin. We will never have perfect understanding this side of Heaven. Heck we don't even have perfect understanding of why one person does the things they do, and we presume to say we understand God's thoughts when He hasn't revealed them to us? That is uh... rather bold, to put it simply.

But He has revealed them to us, in His word. They are not difficult to understand, though they are sometimes difficult to accept. They only become difficult to understand when people start assuming things to try to make them fit a form that is easy for them to accept.

 

[Theofane]

Reason =/= Atheism