When "the perfect" comes...

[DamianWarS]

Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

What is "the perfect"

Lets take this passage in context. What is the context... the context goes way back to chapter 12:1 which says "Now concerning spiritual gifts..." The context is about spiritual gifts.

Paul opens this passage listing off the spiritual gifts then he uses an analogy of the function of spiritual gifts with body parts and saying we are all one body made up of different parts. In verses 15 and 16 he uses examples of body parts of the foot, hand, ear and eye. He does not include all body parts but it is not need to make his message clear. These are just examples of how spiritual gifts can be thought of as different body parts but one body.

Paul continues in the same context and now pulls in his analogy to spiritual gifts saying not all of the same spiritual gifts but we all work together as one body. While making this connection he again begins to list up a bunch of spiritual gifts saying things like "All are not apostles, are they?" or "All are not prophets, are they?" He does not exhaustively list out all spiritual gifts that he previously mentions but similar to his "body parts" analogy his message is clear. His exemption of some spiritual gifts is not to assume these gifts are also exempted from this general message and if you think that then you have missed the point. The message is that all spiritual gifts act in a similar manner and demonstrate different parts in the body of Christ.

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Now Chapter 13 starts and this is the famous love chapter. Remember this is still in the same context as chapter 12. Paul goes on to say that without love spiritual gifts are meaningless and he uses a few examples in style as chapter 12 but not the exhaustive list of spiritual gifts. His examples are tongues, prophecy as spiritual gifts and he also uses faith. Now the intention of Paul is not to say that love only works on these examples but his intention is to include all spiritual gifts and it is not just limited to tongues or prophecy. Paul is saying that all spiritual gifts need to be demonstrated with love.

Now we get into the quote scripture at the beginning in verses 8-13. Again Paul uses some examples of spiritual gifts but in the same context and same spirit as his other examples he does not exhaustively list them off. His point is to say the spiritual gifts have their limits and when we are made complete and perfect we will no longer need these spiritual gifts. This is just not limited to tongues, prophecy or knowledge Paul is talking about all spiritual gifts and that what the context is addressing.

If Paul intended to mean that certain gifts would be no longer available then I think he would have been a little more clear. Paul was not in the habit of writing in code but at the same time he wasn't writing to children. We have to give the context he was writing to a little bit of credit but we can't just add layers of meaning to it turning the meaning into something that just is not clear.

What is the perfect... well it may be a matter of dispute but what I do know is the perfect has not come yet. We do not see God "face to face" so until that happens all spiritual gifts are in full operation. Why then don't we see them? Well it I suppose that depends on who you talk to. When we box God into a set of rules we limit how he can work. He still works but we remove the freedom the spirit has when we try and control how he is suppose to work explaining away simple text likes these that is just showing love is needed in spiritual gifts and trying to discredit them because of a tradition that we have grown up with. Read the text for what it is and it naturally says that all gifts require love, they are limited, and all will be done away with when perfection comes.

 

[FirenWater]

I always understood the perfect come as being perfected in love, even as charity is the bond of perfectness. God is love, and as He is so are we in this world.

Always reminds me of this one too...

1John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Psalm 50:2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.

Theres a few, but I always regarded the perfect come (into our experience) as being perfected in God (who is love) and His love (likewise) perfected in us.

Holy and blameless in love (likewise)

 

[C R F]

What is "the perfect"

Lets take this passage in context. What is the context... the context goes way back to chapter 12:1 which says "Now concerning spiritual gifts..." The context is about spiritual gifts.

Paul opens this passage listing off the spiritual gifts then he uses an analogy of the function of spiritual gifts with body parts and saying we are all one body made up of different parts. In verses 15 and 16 he uses examples of body parts of the foot, hand, ear and eye. He does not include all body parts but it is not need to make his message clear. These are just examples of how spiritual gifts can be thought of as different body parts but one body.

Paul continues in the same context and now pulls in his analogy to spiritual gifts saying not all of the same spiritual gifts but we all work together as one body. While making this connection he again begins to list up a bunch of spiritual gifts saying things like "All are not apostles, are they?" or "All are not prophets, are they?" He does not exhaustively list out all spiritual gifts that he previously mentions but similar to his "body parts" analogy his message is clear. His exemption of some spiritual gifts is not to assume these gifts are also exempted from this general message and if you think that then you have missed the point. The message is that all spiritual gifts act in a similar manner and demonstrate different parts in the body of Christ.



Now Chapter 13 starts and this is the famous love chapter. Remember this is still in the same context as chapter 12. Paul goes on to say that without love spiritual gifts are meaningless and he uses a few examples in style as chapter 12 but not the exhaustive list of spiritual gifts. His examples are tongues, prophecy as spiritual gifts and he also uses faith. Now the intention of Paul is not to say that love only works on these examples but his intention is to include all spiritual gifts and it is not just limited to tongues or prophecy. Paul is saying that all spiritual gifts need to be demonstrated with love.

Now we get into the quote scripture at the beginning in verses 8-13. Again Paul uses some examples of spiritual gifts but in the same context and same spirit as his other examples he does not exhaustively list them off. His point is to say the spiritual gifts have their limits and when we are made complete and perfect we will no longer need these spiritual gifts. This is just not limited to tongues, prophecy or knowledge Paul is talking about all spiritual gifts and that what the context is addressing.

If Paul intended to mean that certain gifts would be no longer available then I think he would have been a little more clear. Paul was not in the habit of writing in code but at the same time he wasn't writing to children. We have to give the context he was writing to a little bit of credit but we can't just add layers of meaning to it turning the meaning into something that just is not clear.

What is the perfect... well it may be a matter of dispute but what I do know is the perfect has not come yet. We do not see God "face to face" so until that happens all spiritual gifts are in full operation. Why then don't we see them? Well it I suppose that depends on who you talk to. When we box God into a set of rules we limit how he can work. He still works but we remove the freedom the spirit has when we try and control how he is suppose to work explaining away simple text likes these that is just showing love is needed in spiritual gifts and trying to discredit them because of a tradition that we have grown up with. Read the text for what it is and it naturally says that all gifts require love, they are limited, and all will be done away with when perfection comes.

Perfection comes with the perfect understanding of the word. When you see as darkly threw a glass or threw a veil things are not clear and most often in error but when you see clear as threw the spirit ,error is removed and perfection is seen. God is perfect. When you see perfection you put it on, just as Abraham was considered righteous because he had the faith , perfection is put on and a man is considered perfect. Jacob was so called perfect. Jesus is perfect and to know him is to put on perfection.

 

[DamianWarS]

Perfection comes with the perfect understanding of the word. When you see as darkly threw a glass or threw a veil things are not clear and most often in error but when you see clear as threw the spirit ,error is removed and perfection is seen. God is perfect. When you see perfection you put it on, just as Abraham was considered righteous because he had the faith , perfection is put on and a man is considered perfect. Jacob was so called perfect. Jesus is perfect and to know him is to put on perfection.

if that is true then why would Paul be referring to something that had not yet come. Paul had access to your definition of "the perfect" as we do right now. Plus there is clear use of all these spiritual gifts well after this definition of perfect as you put it was available so how are these things explained with "the perfect" is simply just "love" or simply a spiritual regeneration through Christ.

 

[Jake255]

We don't "put on perfect", we conform to it, all that perfect means is full, complete and mature, in Christ we conform to His image, which is perfect.

The reason Paul said he had not attained it yet, and that it had not come yet, was because he had not reached perfection yet.

 

[C R F]

if that is true then why would Paul be referring to something that had not yet come. Paul had access to your definition of "the perfect" as we do right now. Plus there is clear use of all these spiritual gifts well after this definition of perfect as you put it was available so how are these things explained with "the perfect" is simply just "love" or simply a spiritual regeneration through Christ.

Because what was , is and is to come. In revelations John got the revelation of Jesus. Then he says, blessed is he that reads the prophecy of that book and them that hear. He is talking about them that have ears to hear and when people do get to hear what is being said, it comes to pass. You say we do. Thats not so. If people do then why would he say we see threw a glass darkly or threw the veil. When the veil is removed the perfect is revealed and then it comes to pass so if people already had the understanding I speak off it would already have happened.

 

[Johnny Todd]

What is "the perfect"

Lets take this passage in context. What is the context... the context goes way back to chapter 12:1 which says "Now concerning spiritual gifts..." The context is about spiritual gifts.

Paul opens this passage listing off the spiritual gifts then he uses an analogy of the function of spiritual gifts with body parts and saying we are all one body made up of different parts. In verses 15 and 16 he uses examples of body parts of the foot, hand, ear and eye. He does not include all body parts but it is not need to make his message clear. These are just examples of how spiritual gifts can be thought of as different body parts but one body.

Paul continues in the same context and now pulls in his analogy to spiritual gifts saying not all of the same spiritual gifts but we all work together as one body. While making this connection he again begins to list up a bunch of spiritual gifts saying things like "All are not apostles, are they?" or "All are not prophets, are they?" He does not exhaustively list out all spiritual gifts that he previously mentions but similar to his "body parts" analogy his message is clear. His exemption of some spiritual gifts is not to assume these gifts are also exempted from this general message and if you think that then you have missed the point. The message is that all spiritual gifts act in a similar manner and demonstrate different parts in the body of Christ.



Now Chapter 13 starts and this is the famous love chapter. Remember this is still in the same context as chapter 12. Paul goes on to say that without love spiritual gifts are meaningless and he uses a few examples in style as chapter 12 but not the exhaustive list of spiritual gifts. His examples are tongues, prophecy as spiritual gifts and he also uses faith. Now the intention of Paul is not to say that love only works on these examples but his intention is to include all spiritual gifts and it is not just limited to tongues or prophecy. Paul is saying that all spiritual gifts need to be demonstrated with love.

Now we get into the quote scripture at the beginning in verses 8-13. Again Paul uses some examples of spiritual gifts but in the same context and same spirit as his other examples he does not exhaustively list them off. His point is to say the spiritual gifts have their limits and when we are made complete and perfect we will no longer need these spiritual gifts. This is just not limited to tongues, prophecy or knowledge Paul is talking about all spiritual gifts and that what the context is addressing.

If Paul intended to mean that certain gifts would be no longer available then I think he would have been a little more clear. Paul was not in the habit of writing in code but at the same time he wasn't writing to children. We have to give the context he was writing to a little bit of credit but we can't just add layers of meaning to it turning the meaning into something that just is not clear.

What is the perfect... well it may be a matter of dispute but what I do know is the perfect has not come yet. We do not see God "face to face" so until that happens all spiritual gifts are in full operation. Why then don't we see them? Well it I suppose that depends on who you talk to. When we box God into a set of rules we limit how he can work. He still works but we remove the freedom the spirit has when we try and control how he is suppose to work explaining away simple text likes these that is just showing love is needed in spiritual gifts and trying to discredit them because of a tradition that we have grown up with. Read the text for what it is and it naturally says that all gifts require love, they are limited, and all will be done away with when perfection comes.

I would say the gifts can be used without love as the scripture clearly makes mention, another verse indicates that the gifts and the call of the God is irrevocable Romans 11:29 so i would also concur a fallen away christian who isn't abiding in Christ could maintain his or her spiritual gifts and use them corruptly

 

[FirenWater]

You can look at perfect love as something that comes as we grow in Christ, to the full measure of the stature of Christ (the same can be shown in accord with wisdom as well)

but here...

1John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

So it speaks of one fearing (in this ones present state). It says, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (not the end all) even as we work out our salvation in fear and trembling (for it is God, even here which works in us). The work of God being wrought in us. However even there (at this stage) he that feareth is not made perfect in love. His love is perfected in us. Without love (all the other things prior without it, sorta appear like tinker toys). Which is Inclusive of ALL faith (which is to work by love) ALL knowledge (which puffeth up, in contrast to love edifieth) ALL understanding, the knowing of ALL mysteries. Heck, even if we sell all we have to the poor without love. Those things (as is written elsewhere as well) are profitable for others, but without love (somehow) it profits ME nothing.

We are at His mercy, I am not perfect in love, not the kind of love that is unfeigned as His. Love must be sincere. Ever look up feigned and feignly, and unfeigned? I dont even have that, I can love those who love me, pray for my enemies be kind to them but the depth of my sincerity in everything leaves much to be desired (even in my own sight).

I'd trade any of my tinkers toys for His love to be perfected in me anyday

 

[visionary]

What is "the perfect"

Lets take this passage in context. What is the context... the context goes way back to chapter 12:1 which says "Now concerning spiritual gifts..." The context is about spiritual gifts.

Paul opens this passage listing off the spiritual gifts then he uses an analogy of the function of spiritual gifts with body parts and saying we are all one body made up of different parts. In verses 15 and 16 he uses examples of body parts of the foot, hand, ear and eye. He does not include all body parts but it is not need to make his message clear. These are just examples of how spiritual gifts can be thought of as different body parts but one body.

Paul continues in the same context and now pulls in his analogy to spiritual gifts saying not all of the same spiritual gifts but we all work together as one body. While making this connection he again begins to list up a bunch of spiritual gifts saying things like "All are not apostles, are they?" or "All are not prophets, are they?" He does not exhaustively list out all spiritual gifts that he previously mentions but similar to his "body parts" analogy his message is clear. His exemption of some spiritual gifts is not to assume these gifts are also exempted from this general message and if you think that then you have missed the point. The message is that all spiritual gifts act in a similar manner and demonstrate different parts in the body of Christ.



Now Chapter 13 starts and this is the famous love chapter. Remember this is still in the same context as chapter 12. Paul goes on to say that without love spiritual gifts are meaningless and he uses a few examples in style as chapter 12 but not the exhaustive list of spiritual gifts. His examples are tongues, prophecy as spiritual gifts and he also uses faith. Now the intention of Paul is not to say that love only works on these examples but his intention is to include all spiritual gifts and it is not just limited to tongues or prophecy. Paul is saying that all spiritual gifts need to be demonstrated with love.

Now we get into the quote scripture at the beginning in verses 8-13. Again Paul uses some examples of spiritual gifts but in the same context and same spirit as his other examples he does not exhaustively list them off. His point is to say the spiritual gifts have their limits and when we are made complete and perfect we will no longer need these spiritual gifts. This is just not limited to tongues, prophecy or knowledge Paul is talking about all spiritual gifts and that what the context is addressing.

If Paul intended to mean that certain gifts would be no longer available then I think he would have been a little more clear. Paul was not in the habit of writing in code but at the same time he wasn't writing to children. We have to give the context he was writing to a little bit of credit but we can't just add layers of meaning to it turning the meaning into something that just is not clear.

What is the perfect... well it may be a matter of dispute but what I do know is the perfect has not come yet. We do not see God "face to face" so until that happens all spiritual gifts are in full operation. Why then don't we see them? Well it I suppose that depends on who you talk to. When we box God into a set of rules we limit how he can work. He still works but we remove the freedom the spirit has when we try and control how he is suppose to work explaining away simple text likes these that is just showing love is needed in spiritual gifts and trying to discredit them because of a tradition that we have grown up with. Read the text for what it is and it naturally says that all gifts require love, they are limited, and all will be done away with when perfection comes.

When the concept leads to fruitation.. perfect is attainable.

 

[FirenWater]

I would say the gifts can be used without love as the scripture clearly makes mention, another verse indicates that the gifts and the call of the God is irrevocable Romans 11:29 so i would also concur a fallen away christian who isn't abiding in Christ could maintain his or her spiritual gifts and use them corruptly

I think this one speaks to that too

Psalms 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Though in the context (of the above) it speaks of His giving some to be pastors etc in the NT I believe, I have to look again.

Perhaps more after the parable, of the Lord taking a long journey and delivered to his servants his own goods, or talents (theres an accountability shown there) in respects to their stewardship, which appears to mirror... "SO THEN each man shall give an account of himself to the Lord" (and ofcouse the Lord comes to see what GAINS were made through his gifts so to speak). Then the words, NOW... it is required that a man be found faithful, and again we here... well done, good and faithful servant (and his measure is increased of the Lord) type thing.

You can sorta catch it in that too

 

[C R F]

You can look at perfect love as something that comes as we grow in Christ, to the full measure of the stature of Christ (the same can be shown in accord with wisdom as well)

but here...

1John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

So it speaks of one fearing (in this ones present state). It says, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (not the end all) even as we work out our salvation in fear and trembling (for it is God, even here which works in us). The work of God being wrought in us. However even there (at this stage) he that feareth is not made perfect in love. His love is perfected in us. Without love (all the other things prior without it, sorta appear like tinker toys). Which is Inclusive of ALL faith (which is to work by love) ALL knowledge (which puffeth up, in contrast to love edifieth) ALL understanding, the knowing of ALL mysteries. Heck, even if we sell all we have to the poor without love. Those things (as is written elsewhere as well) are profitable for others, but without love (somehow) it profits ME nothing.

We are at His mercy, I am not perfect in love, not the kind of love that is unfeigned as His. Love must be sincere. Ever look up feigned and feignly, and unfeigned? I dont even have that, I can love those who love me, pray for my enemies be kind to them but the depth of my sincerity in everything leaves much to be desired (even in my own sight).

I'd trade any of my tinkers toys for His love to be perfected in me anyday

Fireinwater, I will say this and it is without error. When you have ears to hear what the spirit says your receive the truth. The receiving of truth is faith and the giving of truth is love. So if things are there without love, how can it be usefull to anyone.To teach without love you teach and afflick to people of the body with all kinds of afflictions and that is the sins of the bible and that is to hate someone.

 

[ARBITER01]

What is the perfect... well it may be a matter of dispute but what I do know is the perfect has not come yet. We do not see God "face to face" so until that happens all spiritual gifts are in full operation. Why then don't we see them? Well it I suppose that depends on who you talk to. When we box God into a set of rules we limit how he can work. He still works but we remove the freedom the spirit has when we try and control how he is suppose to work explaining away simple text likes these that is just showing love is needed in spiritual gifts and trying to discredit them because of a tradition that we have grown up with. Read the text for what it is and it naturally says that all gifts require love, they are limited, and all will be done away with when perfection comes.

Paul actually answered this question in Ephesians for us,..

Eph 4:9 (Now this, He ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Eph 4:14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

Eph 4:15 but speaking truth in love, may grow up in all things into him, which is the head, even Christ;

That is the eventual perfection to be realized in the body of Christ, to be conformed to the image of His Son. When that comes, there will be no need for giftings and ministries, we shall see clearly, face to face.

 

[FirenWater]

Fireinwater, I will say this and it is without error. When you have ears to hear what the spirit says your receive the truth. The receiving of truth is faith and the giving of truth is love. So if things are there without love, how can it be usefull to anyone.To teach without love you teach and afflick to people of the body with all kinds of afflictions and that is the sins of the bible and that is to hate someone.

Good thing Im not a teacher then, because I'd sure be screwing everyones life up with my less then perfect heart

Which is why I cling to how He words something and stay with studying that.

I certainly do not have the confidence you have to declare anything I say as being without error. Not to mention "the way" I might I say it sometimes. Especially when irritated.

But the tinkertoys come before the perfect does, and I know (and all too well) Im still a work in progress


God bless

 

[FirenWater]

Paul actually answered this question in Ephesians for us,..

That is the eventual perfection to be realized in the body of Christ, to be conformed to the image of His Son. When that comes, there will be no need for giftings and ministries, we shall see clearly, face to face.

Beautiful, love the "till" underlined in your above post (not quoted here)

Something passes knowledge

Ephes 3:16 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Love that, too

God bless

 

[ARBITER01]

Beautiful, love the "till" underlined in your above post (not quoted here)

Something passes knowledge

Ephes 3:16 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Love that, too

God bless

Exactly!

To go beyond and surpass the mere mind, the knowledge of things. To operate in that realm of power like Jesus did, to allow GOD to bear record through us of his greatness and glory for the body of Christ.

These things are contained in the example Jesus gave us all. His earthly ministry is a perfect example of what can be attained to with GOD, and more.

It's starts with a realization of the need for holiness from GOD, which revolves around what Jesus declared to us,..

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

As well as John witnessed to this also,..

1Jn 3:16 Hereby know we love, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

This is the objective of The Holy Spirit, to have each of us as an extension of Jesus down here, unfortunately, not everyone really grasps it or desires it.

 

[FirenWater]

Exactly!

To go beyond and surpass the mere mind, the knowledge of things. To operate in that realm of power like Jesus did, to allow GOD to bear record through us of his greatness and glory for the body of Christ.

These things are contained in the example Jesus gave us all. His earthly ministry is a perfect example of what can be attained to with GOD, and more.

It's starts with a realization of the need for holiness from GOD, which revolves around what Jesus declared to us,..

As well as John witnessed to this also,..

This is the objective of The Holy Spirit, to have each of us as an extension of Jesus down here, unfortunately, not everyone really grasps it or desires it.

Hopefully He will further enlighten us bro Its seems to be like that "taste and see" thing. Sorta like what it seems to take to get you to crave Him maybe.

Maybe like cheesecake (I love it) but didnt know I did till after I was given my first taste, then I craved it (but afterwards I wished I never tried the stuff)

The last part of the cheesecake analogy does not apply to Him though

Yeah bro, we have love that passes knowledge, and theres also the peace of God which passes understanding. So all the pasing stuff sounds much more awesome then the stuff that preceeds it.

Im in

God bless

 

[Johnny Todd]

I think this one speaks to that too

Psalms 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Though in the context (of the above) it speaks of His giving some to be pastors etc in the NT I believe, I have to look again.

Perhaps more after the parable, of the Lord taking a long journey and delivered to his servants his own goods, or talents (theres an accountability shown there) in respects to their stewardship, which appears to mirror... "SO THEN each man shall give an account of himself to the Lord" (and ofcouse the Lord comes to see what GAINS were made through his gifts so to speak). Then the words, NOW... it is required that a man be found faithful, and again we here... well done, good and faithful servant (and his measure is increased of the Lord) type thing.

You can sorta catch it in that too

Yes It also occured to me later that Jesus speaks in Mathew 7:21-23 to "so called christians" who had prophesied in His name, casted out demons, and done many wonders in His name, And He says to them depart from me for I never knew you, because they practiced lawlessness........I think the most important aspect of those scriptures to me is, we see from scripture what happens to people who try to invoke the name of Jesus to cast out demons who are not believers, such as the sons of sceva (Acts 19:14) So we see these people could successfully cast out demons. and perform wonderous signs, maybe healings and such as we see some folks do in such grand flair and showmanship. I personally believe some folks use God given gifts to make themselves rich and famous, they have received gifts from the Holy Spirit at a time when they were sincere, then as pride and greed grow they like others we see mentioned in scripture leave the narrow path and start walking in their own light, no longer abiding in the true light.

 

[FirenWater]

Yes It also occured to me later that Jesus speaks in Mathew 7:21-23 to "so called christians" who had prophesied in His name, casted out demons, and done many wonders in His name, And He says to them depart from me for I never knew you, because they practiced lawlessness........I think the most important aspect of those scriptures to me is, we see from scripture what happens to people who try to invoke the name of Jesus to cast out demons who are not believers, such as the sons of sceva (Acts 19:14) So we see these people could successfully cast out demons. and perform wonderous signs, maybe healings and such as we see some folks do in such grand flair and showmanship. I personally believe some folks use God given gifts to make themselves rich and famous, they have received gifts from the Holy Spirit at a time when they were sincere, then as pride and greed grow they like others we see mentioned in scripture leave the narrow path and start walking in their own light, no longer abiding in the true light.

Johnny, you brought up the one that come to my mind also, because it also says, let he that names the name of the Lord DEPART from iniquity, and yet He is shown saying DEPART from me ye that work iniquity. And it speaks of those which preach Christ out of strife and envy which is contrasted against those who preach Christ out of good will. The important thing, is that the Lord knows them that are His

But likewise, we sometimes start off on the wrong foot and end up on the right, and get on track by the grace of God.

And I also agree, that (as Jesus put it) there is that which ENTERS IN. Or for example they which recieved the word with JOY, and elsewhere it an example of they which recieved the word with the JOY of the Holy Ghost, and when returning back to Jesus parable, they believe but for AWHILE, but (there) its in the time of temptation they fall away. Or for example, in respects to bearing fruit unto perfection, somewhere along the line the cares of this life (or) the deceitfulness of riches ENTER IN and choke the word, and they become unfruitful. Patient continuance is how I regard. Our constant abiding in Him and His words in ourselves. Always taking care to take heed to the doctrine (which is according to godliness) and ourselves as well.

I recall a thread somewhere where folks were arguing over some fiction book (and it got pretty heated) which is sorta how it goes around here sometimes. But the whole thing was how you could be deceived by it (this particular fiction). But if you think about it, if we be a hearer and not a doer of the words of the Lord (bound in a book as well) and these being the words of truth (and no fiction) we can deceive our ownselves (even from there).

I recall that one hitting me like a ton of bricks

Paying more closer heed now

Always grateful for a word that hits you like a 90 mile an hour baseball coming at your head

God bless you

 

[Jake255]

Yes It also occured to me later that Jesus speaks in Mathew 7:21-23 to "so called christians" who had prophesied in His name, casted out demons, and done many wonders in His name, And He says to them depart from me for I never knew you, because they practiced lawlessness........I think the most important aspect of those scriptures to me is, we see from scripture what happens to people who try to invoke the name of Jesus to cast out demons who are not believers, such as the sons of sceva (Acts 19:14) So we see these people could successfully cast out demons. and perform wonderous signs, maybe healings and such as we see some folks do in such grand flair and showmanship. I personally believe some folks use God given gifts to make themselves rich and famous, they have received gifts from the Holy Spirit at a time when they were sincere, then as pride and greed grow they like others we see mentioned in scripture leave the narrow path and start walking in their own light, no longer abiding in the true light.

I agree, but would like to add that these people may have done these things, however they didn't do the MAJOR things the Lord has told us to do, besides the 2 great commandments and to preach the gospel, Jesus talked ALOT about caring for the poor, providing them with food and shelter, and basically DOING the gospel.

I think it's too easy for people to brag about these "gifts of healing", "prophecy" because they are gifts that are highly desirable, yet caring for the poor is vitally important.

Separating the sheeps and the goats parable is a good example.

Sorry to get OT here, but we forget about simply caring for the poor and focus on spiritual gifts alone.

 

[DamianWarS]

I would say the gifts can be used without love as the scripture clearly makes mention, another verse indicates that the gifts and the call of the God is irrevocable Romans 11:29 so i would also concur a fallen away christian who isn't abiding in Christ could maintain his or her spiritual gifts and use them corruptly

Paul does not say you cannot use the gifts without love but he does say they are counterproductive without love