When is the beast destroyed and thrown into the fire ?

DavidPT said:

I may just have to go back to the old drawing board on this one and start over, meaning I need to do some more rethinking on some of these things.

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I’m still studying this also; if the LOF is the bottomless pit and Babylon is fallen into the pit/LOF then every foul spirit being in Babylon could make sense. However based on the rest of Revelation it doesn’t seem very likely that the LOF and the bottomless pit are the same. So that’s why I’m still looking at this also.

DavidPT said:

How does it seem reasonable that events pertaining to being cast into the lake of fire have already been fulfilled in the past?

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Based on the angel's interpretation of the vision in daniel 7, there would be four earthly kingdoms, but the saints would possess the kingdom forever.

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

According to the NT gospels and epistles, the Kingdom of God was at hand, and the saints were being translated into it/receiving it in the 1st century, during the Roman empire (4th kingdom):

Mark 1:14-15 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand repent and believe in the gospel.”

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 12:28-29 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire.

Romans 14:17 or the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Luke 21:31-32 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place

Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”

DavidPT said:

This is the same LOF we see satan and others getting cast into in Revelation 20:10-15.

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Correct.

DavidPT said:

I know of no one, who is not a full Preterist, that would claim Revelation 20:10-15 has already been fulfilled 2000 years ago. I don't know of anyone, who is not a full Preterist, that would claim that 20:10-15 can even be fulfilled unless Christ has bodily returned first.

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I did not discuss revelation 20:10-15 nor claim its fulfillment in post #57.

DavidPT said:

Why is it then, that some of you are claiming, via your interpretations, that some, in this case meaning the beast and false prophet, have already been cast into the LOF 2000 years ago, and not only that, it never even involved the bodily return of Christ?

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Some of us interpret the "times of gentiles" not as the gospel going to the gentiles following 70ad, but as the times of the gentile kingdoms, specifically mentioned in Daniel (Babylon, Persia/Media, Greece, and Rome), culminating in the trampling of Jerusalem for 42 months in 66-70ad.

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Revelation 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

This ends in the coming of the vineyard owner (coming of Christ in judgment upon apostate israel, which is consistent with partial preterist theology) to remove the kingdom from the wicked tenants and give it to those producing its fruit.

Luke 21:25-32 And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
And he told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. As soon as they come out in leaf, you see for yourselves and know that the summer is already near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place.

Matthew 21:39-41, 43,45 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons. Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them.

jeffweedaman said:

Do we all agree that this happens at the Lords second coming?

If so , what happens to those who have followed him at this time?

Scripture in Rev states....,


All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.



And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.



“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.


Rev 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”




Those not in the book of life from the foundation of the world , will follow the beast, and those who follow the beast are thrown into the fire....at his coming.


So who could possibily populate a future millennial reign when Jesus comes again a second time to destroy the beast?

All whose names are not in the book of life from the foundation of the world right up until his coming will have their part in the LOF that was prepared for the devil and his beast angels.

How can one possibly introduce a third group , (who never had their names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world , and avoided the mark of the beast ) , that survives to populate a future period of time after the Lord comes again??

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Hi the scriptures note this at the 2nd coming; 4 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[fn] spoken of by Daniel the prophet,[fn] standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Now in this passage there is a group post abomination, post tribulation who are elect and not killed off. In Zeh 14 we see the 2nd coming of the LORD in clear details. The city Jerusalem is being overrun. The LORD comes with his saints and graphically melts the enemies. The LORD is king over all the earth and "16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles."

Those that are left from the nations shall come and worship the King and keep the feast of tabernacles. Again people left surviving and life going on as the new river created will flow year round. This river is said to flow east which Ezekiel 47 notes the river flowing east will heal the dead sea and it will become a prosperous fishing area and at that same time the 12 tribes of Israel are given their land by lot of inheritance within known borders of current Israel.

So being elect before the foundation of the earth is God's for knowledge of who will be written in the book and who will not be. The tribulation will convert many a soul and many not all will die for their faith. At the end when the LORD returns he will separate the sheep from the goats. This is not the great white throne but deciding who can enter the millennium. All who took the mark will not make it. Of those who refused only the LORD knows what is the criteria for making it. Dan 7 is a parallel passage as a pompous guy is persecuting the saints and speaking pompous words against the most high for a time times and half a time which would be in sync with the beast persecuting for 42 months. This guy is Dan 7 is given to the flame when the kingdom is given to one like the son of man who is before the ancient of days. This kingdom covers the earth and has no end. The rest of the beast lose their dominion but have their lives prolonged for a season and a time. These beast would be the principalities and powers who will lose dominion forever and their lives prolonged for a season and time would be a 1000 year season for a time to tempt those who have lived through the millennium. This is prior to the books being opened and your choices are known before we make them. This is being elect to choose the LORD no matter when you lived.

If this still seems like a contradiction to you think if you move the rapture up from being the same as the 2nd coming and your problem is gone. There are hundreds of before and after prophecies that shall be accomplished taken in a literal manner and hold to the same sequence of events. There is a lot accomplished through the tribulation and into the kingdom age.

You can save any the kingdom is not of this world and is a spiritual kingdom stuff because I agree with those concepts as well. The millennium in not mutually exclusive to holding both ideas.

DavidPT said:

My point had nothing to do with how long they might be leaving the bodies alone. My point has to do with the fact that no one in their right mind would be calling for a reason to celebrate about anything if the last 7 vials of wrath are already in progress at the time.

Let's look at something here.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

A) First there is this---For when they shall say, Peace and safety

B) Then there is this---then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

During which time does verse 10 appear to fit during? A) or B)?

During which time do the last 7 vials of wrath appear to fit during? A) or B)?

It seems to me that the 6 trumpet judgments are happening during the time of the 2WS when they are prophesying, the fact verse 10 indicates that these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. Why not via these trumpet judgments being one way they tormented them? After all, it does say the following about what the 2Ws were doing during their testimonies.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Look what verse 6 says---and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Do not the trumpet judgments bring about plagues? Do not the trumpet judgments bring about the waters being turned into blood?

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;


What we have to keep in mind, once the 2Ws are killed off, this tormenting of them that are dwelling on the earth seemingly stops, thus a call for celebration, thus a time of peace and safety. But, according to 1 Thessalonians 5:3 this time of peace and safety seems to be short lived, the fact we are then told--then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

As to the vials of wrath, here is what it states about the first vial.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

To place this parallel with that of the first trumpet then means that before the first trumpet has even sounded, the beast has to have already ascended out of the pit, and a 2nd one out of the earth, and be in full operation in order to have a noisome and grievous sore fall upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. This can't be meaning when the beast 'was', nor when it 'is not', but must be meaning once it has ascended out of the pit.

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Because the 7th Trumpet brings Satan to earth. It is only on earth that Satan is given time to rule. That would put the 6 prior Trumpets after the 7th Trumpet.

Revelation 9:12-13

12 The first woe has passed, but there are still two woes to come.
13 The sixth angel sounded his shofar, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the gold altar before God.

Revelation 11:14-15

14 The second woe has passed; see, the third woe is coming quickly
15 The seventh angel sounded his shofar; and there were loud voices in heaven.

The verses just prior to 14 give us the event of the 2 witnesses, and some claim they witness before Satan arrives. No, and the same is said about the 144k in chapter 7. John always introduces a character prior to the narrative they are in. The 144k were on earth for the Trumpets and Thunders and their leaving is Revelation 13:7. The 2 witnesses arrive when the 144k and the Lamb leave. Christ and the 144k return 42 months later at Armageddon on white horses. They were defeated to let Satan have authority, after Satan's 42 months, all under Satan were defeated and sent to Death, and the FP and beast are cast into the Lake of Fire.

The third woe is Satan coming to ask for his 42 months. The third woe for him and his followers is the 7th Trumpet.

The 2 witnesses are not in the 6 Trumpets or 7 Thunders in Revelation 10. They are during Satan's 42 months to torment those who worship Satan and receive the mark. The 144k and Christ are in the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders, but do not stay for Satan's 42 months. That is how the narrative reads. Not that one is trying to figure out how the characters react to any of the judgments, themselves. It is based on John's introduction of the characters.

Chapter 4 and 5 introduces the Lamb. The Lamb and God arrive in the 6th Seal.

Chapter 7 introduces the 144k, and place the church in the temple of God. This temple (Paradise) is the heavenly narrative addressed I relationship with the earthly events.

The 144k are on earth and remain until Revelation 13:7. Prior to the 7th Trumpet, the 2 witnesses and Satan are introduced. They are in the whole period of the 7th Trumpet.

We see in Revelation 14 that the 144k go wherever the Lamb goes. They are on earth, Christ is on earth. Why does no one see this?

Revelation 14:1-5

4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; they follow the Lamb wherever he goes; they have been ransomed from among humanity as firstfruits for God and the Lamb;

They are the ransomed as firstfruits. This is not in the 1st century. This is not after the battle of Armageddon. This is at the Second Coming in the 6th Seal. The harvest of the Trumpets and Thunders is the whole fruit of the vineyard. This all happens before the 7th Trumpet and Satan's 42 months. These are not the church in Paradise, this is the earthly narrative. These harvested by the firstfruits, the 144k and the Lamb, after the Second Coming are those resurrected on the earth in Revelation 20:4 They live on earth and 1000 years later the new earth.

So we see that the 7 vials lead up to the battle of Armageddon. This is the 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead. This is the Thursday to Sunday of the days of the 7th Trumpet. The witnesses lay dead, the vials are poured out, and the 7th Trumpet is still blaring. It cannot stop until sin and Adam's flesh is eradicated from the earth at the battle of Armageddon.

I don't think all agree that this happens immediately after the second coming of Christ. In fact not all agree on what constitutes the second coming of Christ. Suffice it to say that at the appointed time, at the Great White Throne judgement all judgement is consummated including the destruction of what we call hell or hades. It may be more correct and appropriate to attribute it to that event which is sometime after the second coming of Christ to rule and reign on earth.