When Do you say enough?

[Stryder06]

So I was wondering when you think it's time to shake the dust from you feet and move one?

I've found that many on these boards really have no interest in learning or understanding truth. It seems better to most that we engage in argument then work together to understand the bible.

More so then not I prefer to say something when someone disparages our teachings publicly, but when do you think one should simply move on?

I hate the idea that someone may get the wrong idea about Adventisim because of what someone who has been lead astray may say, but at the same time I don't want to constantly battle against people who are suppose to be my siblings in Christ.

It's troublesome.

 

[reddogs]

So I was wondering when you think it's time to shake the dust from you feet and move one?

I've found that many on these boards really have no interest in learning or understanding truth. It seems better to most that we engage in argument then work together to understand the bible.

More so then not I prefer to say something when someone disparages our teachings publicly, but when do you think one should simply move on?

I hate the idea that someone may get the wrong idea about Adventisim because of what someone who has been lead astray may say, but at the same time I don't want to constantly battle against people who are suppose to be my siblings in Christ.

It's troublesome.

Excellent point, but I feel we have put the light on the hill so others can see Gods truth and to take it down because a few 'yell and shout' for it to be extinquished is no reason to hide it under a bushel. Shake the dust off your feet from those who reject it and look for those who are hungry for the truth.

 

[Sylvia49]

Yes, these forums do have those who "yell and shout," but the reason of the forum in the first place is to discuss different ideas/viewpoints. We all come from different backgrounds and cultures, and may have something to offer to another in need.

 

[bugkiller]

Maybe I can shed some light on the subject. The problem I see is you folks seem to speak a different language. When asked about things I always get denial first. Secondly I do not get a disscussion of what I present. There seems to be a one way street. You (SDA in general) seem to have problems with your FB's as understood by the general Christian community in practice. It is very difficult for the average person to understand the fine difficulties with the wording. American language is partly to blame. When I go to anything for difinition I am wrong 99% of the time. Look your dictionaries and religious books are not available in any book stores except the one in the back of a church. And this is for the whole state. Your material is not available to the public. To state something is wrong with no rebuttal or support is denial. Another problem I see is the distaste for Paul. It seems that he is rejected as not being scripture. It also appears that we have a different Jesus. Another problem is the context argument.

A reason we present somthing over and over is because an answer has not been given in the form of support or denial. When asked for support for your position we usually get none. If we show why we disagree we get the same comment of denial and refusal to discuss. It is so predictable I could provide the entire discussion and probably not vary more than a word or two reflecting personality.

I too say, Uncle. No I will not give up in trying to communicate. I have no clue why my faith icon has disappeared.

bugkiller

 

[OntheDL]

Maybe I can shed some light on the subject. The problem I see is you folks seem to speak a different language. When asked about things I always get denial first. Secondly I do not get a disscussion of what I present. There seems to be a one way street. You (SDA in general) seem to have problems with your FB's as understood by the general Christian community in practice. It is very difficult for the average person to understand the fine difficulties with the wording. American language is partly to blame. When I go to anything for difinition I am wrong 99% of the time. Look your dictionaries and religious books are not available in any book stores except the one in the back of a church. And this is for the whole state. Your material is not available to the public. To state something is wrong with no rebuttal or support is denial. Another problem I see is the distaste for Paul. It seems that he is rejected as not being scripture. It also appears that we have a different Jesus. Another problem is the context argument.

A reason we present somthing over and over is because an answer has not been given in the form of support or denial. When asked for support for your position we usually get none. If we show why we disagree we get the same comment of denial and refusal to discuss. It is so predictable I could provide the entire discussion and probably not vary more than a word or two reflecting personality.

I too say, Uncle. No I will not give up in trying to communicate. I have no clue why my faith icon has disappeared.

bugkiller

Hi,

I've been here since the end of 05. So I have seen things changed quite a bit. I don't remember seeing your postings. So I can't speak about them. But now if you have the feeling that you don't get alot of discussions is because most of the topics have been debated to exhaustion. So the same people are just tired of giving the same answers all over again and again.

Another problem with that is there is very little unbiased moderating on this forum. The specific forum rules have not been strictly enforced. So people don't want to get into heated situations and many have left as you can see. And the more progressive group even split and have their own forum now.

And your perception of our faith and beliefs might be accurate because the vast majority of the SDAs themselves do not understand what Adventism is really about. The church hasn't taught its members the doctrines for about 3 generations now. In the 60s, the general conference decided it wants to be like the main stream christianity. So it has avoided and neglected what we really believe in since.

Our belief is based the understand of the sanctuary. That subject is no longer taught anywhere. You usually find the really good literature on it on some dusty corners of the church basements. It's a complex doctrine that requires diligent bible study. SDA church is like every other church in that respect. Very few really study for themselves.

On the Ellen White estate website, you can find Ellen White's books. And in the ABC book stores (online and locally) you can find some good books on FB of the original Adventists in the back (you just have to know what to look for). But now there are mostly the more progressive books in stores in the front and center. I have some wonderful books written by Adventist pioneers on SDA beliefs in PDF form. Let me know if you are interested.

SDAs do not have any distaste for Paul. I think you maybe confuse us with some extreme Messianics. The book of Hebrews is a glorious book for us to find support for our belief of Jesus' heavenly ministry. We do believe in salvation by grace, but not without the evidence of the work. In another word, we don't believe in grace gives anyone the license to transgress the law of God. So some label us legalistic in that respect.

 

[bugkiller]

Hi,

I've been here since the end of 05. So I have seen things changed quite a bit. I don't remember seeing your postings. So I can't speak about them. But now if you have the feeling that you don't get alot of discussions is because most of the topics have been debated to exhaustion. So the same people are just tired of giving the same answers all over again and again.

Another problem with that is there is very little unbiased moderating on this forum. The specific forum rules have not been strictly enforced. So people don't want to get into heated situations and many have left as you can see. And the more progressive group even split and have their own forum now.

And your perception of our faith and beliefs might be accurate because the vast majority of the SDAs themselves do not understand what Adventism is really about. The church hasn't taught its members the doctrines for about 3 generations now. In the 60s, the general conference decided it wants to be like the main stream christianity. So it has avoided and neglected what we really believe in since.

Our belief is based the understand of the sanctuary. That subject is no longer taught anywhere. You usually find the really good literature on it on some dusty corners of the church basements. It's a complex doctrine that requires diligent bible study. SDA church is like every other church in that respect. Very few really study for themselves.

On the Ellen White estate website, you can find Ellen White's books. And in the ABC book stores (online and locally) you can find some good books on FB of the original Adventists in the back (you just have to know what to look for). But now there are mostly the more progressive books in stores in the front and center. I have some wonderful books written by Adventist pioneers on SDA beliefs in PDF form. Let me know if you are interested.

SDAs do not have any distaste for Paul. I think you maybe confuse us with some extreme Messianics. The book of Hebrews is a glorious book for us to find support for our belief of Jesus' heavenly ministry. We do believe in salvation by grace, but not without the evidence of the work. In another word, we don't believe in grace gives anyone the license to transgress the law of God. So some label us legalistic in that respect.

I don't post here ususally. At least any more. I have been posting in GT for the last three months. I am having a slack time at the moment related to an isuue you brought up in your second paragraph specifically with folks of your persuasion who refuse to identify themselves as SDA. That is another issue. A problem exists because they say they are promoting the truth and refuse to identify themselves. Is this not dishonesty? Is it not breaking the commandments you proport to uphold? How then do they wish one to believe they are speaking the truth? We have a semantics problem. I think there are some Christians in the SDA movement. Because of the choices available if you are SDA and only identify yourself as a Christian (may be true) and refuse to identify yourself as SDA, are you not misrepresenting yourself when promoting SDA theology? I thought deception is lying thus bearing false witness and for the purpose of decption.

I have been dealing with SDA for over 10 years now. I have several books even collectible one from your church. So it is not a matter of general curiousity for me as I am not totally without understanding. My SDA neighbor who is totally wrapped up in your movement (30 plus yrs) has your commentaries only watches 3ABN, except for local news is irratated because I have an answer for everything he has been able to come up with. His debate is your wrong, no comment and dismissal. His whole attitude is I have to prove you wrong. I have to say the same things over and over before he will deal with them and then has an angry attitude. I find the same attitude here in GT and other sites I visit. A very predominant attitude.

I was a lurker here before the SDA had a seperate board I think and most definately before the traditional/moderate board split. I remember the argument over it.

So what am I looking for? Some honest and open discussion of issues on a two way street. If you want others to accept what you say you must have an open spirit enough to deal with not deny what others say. I am not interested in a scripture swap. I am not attacking you or others in such an exchange. It is not personal. It is OK for SDA to tell me what I believe and I can not tell them what they believe. I am read. I have read the Bible and argued against ministers of the church I grew up in and won consession to my point at 17 years old.

bugkiller

 

[Traveler1318]

So what am I looking for? Some honest and open discussion of issues on a two way street. If you want others to accept what you say you must have an open spirit enough to deal with not deny what others say. I am not interested in a scripture swap. I am not attacking you or others in such an exchange. It is not personal. It is OK for SDA to tell me what I believe and I can not tell them what they believe. I am read. I have read the Bible and argued against ministers of the church I grew up in and won consession to my point at 17 years old.

bugkiller

Hi, bugkiller.

I hear you. I really do. I grew up Presbyterian and my mom, and then later my dad, became United Methodist preachers. I was a youth pastor for a four-church ecumenical youth group. I studied with preachers of several denominations, led their lectionary studies, preached from their pulpits, and felt qualified to lead any of their churches. When my bride married me, it with the understanding that she would become a Methodist preacher's wife.

One day somebody showed me that the Bible is its own expositor, that when it uses a symbol in one place it defines that symbol somewhere else, that when a prophecy is stated using literal language, it must be understood literally. When symbolic language is used, it must be understood symbolically. They showed me how the Bible accurately predicted 2300 years of human history and the Bible became for me a living whole. I was shocked by how much I didn't know. I was confronted with the fact that I had lots of learning and unlearning to do. I really didn't want to become SDA; it was weird and inconvenient, but if I was going to follow Jesus and the Bible, I had no choice. I knew that there was value in my Christian walk up to that point, but also recognized that I had learned some error along the way. It was at least six months of Bible study before I was willing to preach again.

Today I make it my point to defend the Gospel with more than mere opinion and a willingness to answer the question, "How do you know?" You do not need Ellen White to demonstrate SDA doctrine; only the Bible. And sometimes a history book. (The history book is to demonstrate prophetic fulfillment, not as scripture.) (Just to be clear.)

And so, bugkiller, I look forward to discussing with you and exploring the question together, "How do you know?"

Remain faithful,
Traveler

 

[bugkiller]

Hi, bugkiller.

I hear you. I really do. I grew up Presbyterian and my mom, and then later my dad, became United Methodist preachers. I was a youth pastor for a four-church ecumenical youth group. I studied with preachers of several denominations, led their lectionary studies, preached from their pulpits, and felt qualified to lead any of their churches. When my bride married me, it with the understanding that she would become a Methodist preacher's wife.

One day somebody showed me that the Bible is its own expositor, that when it uses a symbol in one place it defines that symbol somewhere else, that when a prophecy is stated using literal language, it must be understood literally. When symbolic language is used, it must be understood symbolically. They showed me how the Bible accurately predicted 2300 years of human history and the Bible became for me a living whole. I was shocked by how much I didn't know. I was confronted with the fact that I had lots of learning and unlearning to do. I really didn't want to become SDA; it was weird and inconvenient, but if I was going to follow Jesus and the Bible, I had no choice. I knew that there was value in my Christian walk up to that point, but also recognized that I had learned some error along the way. It was at least six months of Bible study before I was willing to preach again.

Today I make it my point to defend the Gospel with more than mere opinion and a willingness to answer the question, "How do you know?" You do not need Ellen White to demonstrate SDA doctrine; only the Bible. And sometimes a history book. (The history book is to demonstrate prophetic fulfillment, not as scripture.) (Just to be clear.)

And so, bugkiller, I look forward to discussing with you and exploring the question together, "How do you know?"

Remain faithful,
Traveler

so what do you propose to do about your fellow SDA brethern? All I see is backslapping, which they demand.

I'll start you off with Jer 31:31-34. I have discussed it here on the SDA forum and in GT. I don't remember seeing you discuss this in GT. Reason I mention GT is because I don't usually visit here. So what is your take. k4c has only quoted and used the last two verses which are part of the sentence. He has apparently quite using them because of my comment.

bugkiller

 

[RND]

I'll start you off with Jer 31:31-34.

Question: How do these verses apply to you specifically? They were intended for the house of Judah and the house of Israel. Which one do you belong to and how do you reckon belonging to that tribe?

"...I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah..."