When do we forgive?

tonychanyt · Jul 14, 2023

Luke 17:

3b If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.

You can wait until he repents but you don't have to. Note that Jesus did not say that if your brother did not repent, then don't forgive him. In fact, while on the cross, Luke 23:

34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

Peter was inquisitive and wanted to know more, Matthew 18:

21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Jesus proceeded to tell the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant who refused to forgive his brother:

32Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’

What if the brother refuses to acknowledge his offense against you?

See How to resolve conflicts between two Christians?.

In any case, we should have a forgiving heart always.

Paul summarized it nicely in Ephesians 4:

32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Colossians 3:

13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

Forgiveness is a group thing. You may have inadvertently offended your brother at times. Be quick to forgive one another.

Proverbs 17:

9 Love prospers when a fault is forgiven, but dwelling on it separates close friends.

Do we have to forgive blindly?

You don't have to. However, it is wise to forgive even if someone does not repent. Do yourself a favor: forgive and set yourself free to love. The Father forgives you if and only if you forgive others.

When do we forgive?

You are doing yourself a favor when you do. You are hurting yourself when you don't. You choose when.

St_Worm2 · Aug 11, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Jesus did not say that if your brother did not repent, then don't forgive him.

Hello brother, I'm not so sure about that. Isn't that ~exactly~ what He said (or at the very least, implied)?

Luke 17

3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and ~if~ he repents, forgive him.

4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

I suppose (in some sense) that's ok though, because most of us fail to obey the Lord's first command in this process (of Biblical forgiveness and reconciliation), don't we, by failing to lovingly rebuke a brother or sister who has sinned against us.

We do so to avoid further pain and to "feel better" about ourselves, but whenever we do so, we start a cold war against the very person who God intends for us to help (the person who sinned against us, that is, a person who may not even realize the hurt that they have caused us, because we choose to forgive them in silence, w/o rebuke or repentance, for our sake alone). My question is, when did Christianity ever become a faith that is all about us alone, rather than about others? (Philippians 2:3-4; Galatians 6:10)

Finally, our failure to do so means that we have now sinned against them, and that we, therefore, need to repent and seek their forgiveness (forgiveness from the very person who had just sinned against us, that is ).

WOW, human relations can be a truly messy business, can't it, but I don't think that's because we obey God, rather, I think it's because we fail to obey Him in some critical way, especially when we try to incorporate the world's ways and "wisdom" into God's somehow (or in the case of things like Divine "forgiveness/reconciliation", by simply disregarding what God has to say, as well what He intends to accomplish, altogether ).

I'll be back to talk about the rest of this, including why the world's idea of forgiveness (in place of God's) has enjoyed such a wholehearted embrace by the modern church, in general, and what two men (who were both in the throes of death) were really saying when they asked the Father to forgive the ones who were killing them.

God bless you!!

--David

tonychanyt · Aug 12, 2023

St_Worm2 said:
Hello brother, I'm not so sure about that. Isn't that ~exactly~ what He said (or at the very least, implied)?

Luke 17
3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and ~if~ he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

Good question

The syntax of First-Order Logic is strict.

Let statement S1 = If your brother repents, then forgive him.
S2 = If your brother does not repent, then don't forgive him.

S1 does not ⇒ (imply) S2.

S3 = Forgive your brother if and only if he repents.

Now, S3 ⇒ S2.

St_Worm2 · Aug 12, 2023

Hello again brother (@tonychanyt), how/where does the world's manner of forgiveness, that, "If your brother does not repent, then you must forgive him anyway", fit into the first-order scenario above? Also, what do you think the Lord will have to say to us about our choice to practice the world's manner of "forgiveness" instead of his?

Quite frankly, if we follow the world's wisdom and way of "forgiveness", what are we to do with verses like Matthew 5:9, adjust it a bit so that it reads, "Blessed are the cold war-makers", instead

Lastly, if we change the meaning of one of the Lord's commandments above, commandment #2 in v3, that is, then what are we supposed to do with commandment #1, "If your brother sins, rebuke him"? (change the meaning of it as well to fit the scenario that we prefer, disregard it altogether as most of us already do most of the time anyway, something else?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I've been looking into the topic of forgiveness for more than a year now, ever since I noticed that most of the church, meaning both the organizations and the individual Christians within our churches, have not only adopted the world's manner of and reason/purpose for forgiveness, but have embraced it as if God Himself had commanded that we do so (rather than continue to follow the mandates that He originally gave us in the Bible). So, more to come

As you may have already surmised, this topic has become a pet peeve of mine (once I realized what I was doing, and that I'd fallen for it hook, line and sinker, for Satan's trap, that is, just like almost everyone else in the church has at this point, I decided that I needed to push back).

BTW, I should probably warn you that I have a few other pet peeves too , like "Christian" meditation that follows the dictates/practices of eastern or Transcendental meditation instead, and/or the quote about silent witnessing/evangelism that is supposed to have come from St. Francis of Assisi (but didn't), "Preach the Gospel at all times, if necessary, use words".

tonychanyt · Aug 12, 2023

St_Worm2 said:
Hello again brother (@tonychanyt), how/where does the world's manner of forgiveness, that, "If your brother does not repent, then you must forgive him anyway", fit into the first-order scenario above? Also, what do you think the Lord will have to say to us about our choice to practice the world's manner of "forgiveness" instead of his?

If he repents, forgive him. (Luke 17:3)

In terms of FOL,
it does not imply: If he does not repent, don't forgive him.
It does not imply: If you forgive him, then he has repented.
It does not imply: If he does not repent, forgive him anyway.

It does imply: If you have not forgiven him, then he has not repented. In this case, rebuke him.

If he refuses to repent after the rebuke, Luke 17:3 does not demand that you forgive him or not forgive him. That's up to you. Personally, I would forgive anyone even if he refuses to repent. I'll leave the judgment to God as to how God will deal with him. For my own peace with the Father, I would just forgive. Matthew 6:

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Good question. Feel free to follow up

When do we forgive?

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