When do the last days end?

claninja · Aug 25, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Before the Millennium. The Mill is a different age. The last days is the times before Christ returns up til he does return and all the events related to the second coming happen.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

In ezekiel 38, Gog comes against Israel in the last days:
Ezekiel 38:16 and you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.”

However, in revelation Gog-magog comes against God's city AFTER the millenium
Revelation 20:7-9 then the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.

If the last days occurs, as you say, before the millenium, how can Gog attack God's city after the millenium?

HTacianas · Aug 25, 2018

ewq1938 said:
The Millennium was never "abrogated" by anyone. Both Amil and Pre-mil doctrines believe in a Millennium but the timing of it differs.

See "Chiliasm" at newadvent.org

Original Happy Camper · Aug 25, 2018

claninja said:
So when do the last days occur, before or after the millennium?

Before

ewq1938 · Aug 25, 2018

HTacianas said:
Yes. It was. There is a lengthy article describing the history of it at newadvent.org. Search "chiliasm".

Don't see anything.

DavidPT · Aug 25, 2018

claninja said:
Do the last days occur before or after the millennium?

I think there needs to be three options rather than two, or maybe even a 4th option as well.

The 3 options----Do the last days occur before, during, or after the millennium?

With a 4th option----Do the last days occur before and during, or after the millennium?

The option I might choose is this one---before and during the millennium.

Why?

For one I agree the last days began during the days of Peter, per the passage you submitted earlier.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Per Premil this is typically taken to be meaning during the thousand years once Christ has returned, thus why I might choose before and during the millennium. I wonder what Amils might choose if it only involves the two choices per your quote above? Wouldn't Amils think the last days occur during the millennium? But you don't have that as an option though.

ewq1938 · Aug 25, 2018

claninja said:
In ezekiel 38, Gog comes against Israel in the last days:
Ezekiel 38:16 and you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.”

However, in revelation Gog-magog comes against God's city AFTER the millenium
Revelation 20:7-9 then the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.

If the last days occurs, as you say, before the millenium, how can Gog attack God's city after the millenium?

Every age has it's own "last days".

claninja · Aug 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
I think there needs to be three options rather than two, or maybe even a 4th option as well.

The 3 options----Do the last days occur before, during, or after the millennium?

With a 4th option----Do the last days occur before and during, or after the millennium?

The option I might choose is this one---before and during the millennium.

Thanks for the suggestion. I will update it.

DavidPT said:
For one I agree the last days began during the days of Peter, per the passage you submitted earlier.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Per Premil this is typically taken to be meaning during the thousand years once Christ has returned, thus why I might choose before and during the millennium. I wonder what Amils might choose if it only involves the two choices per your quote above? Wouldn't Amils think the last days occur during the millennium? But you don't have that as an option though.

In ezekiel 38, Gog comes against Israel in the last days:
Ezekiel 38:16 and you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.”

However, in revelation Gog-magog comes against God's city AFTER the millenium
Revelation 20:7-9 then the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.

If the last days occurs, as you say, before the millenium, how can Gog attack God's city after the millenium?

claninja · Aug 25, 2018

Original Happy Camper said:
Before

In ezekiel 38, Gog comes against Israel in the last days:
Ezekiel 38:16 and you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.”

However, in revelation Gog-magog comes against God's city AFTER the millenium
Revelation 20:7-9 then the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.

If the last days occurs, as you say, before the millenium, how can Gog attack God's city after the millenium?

HTacianas · Aug 25, 2018

http://orthochristian.com/86555.html

ewq1938 said:
Don't see anything.

http://orthochristian.com/86555.html

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10307a.htm

claninja · Aug 25, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Every age has it's own "last days".

So Gog battles twice and is defeated twice?

ewq1938 · Aug 25, 2018

claninja said:
In ezekiel 38, Gog comes against Israel in the last days:
Ezekiel 38:16 and you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.”

However, in revelation Gog-magog comes against God's city AFTER the millenium
Revelation 20:7-9 then the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.

If the last days occurs, as you say, before the millenium, how can Gog attack God's city after the millenium?

Why isn't there a magog in the Ezekiel battle if it's the same event?

claninja · Aug 25, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Why isn't there a magog in the Ezekiel battle if it's the same event?

Ezekiel 38:2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog

So you believe they are different?

Original Happy Camper · Aug 25, 2018

claninja said:
If the last days occurs, as you say, before the millenium, how can Gog attack God's city after the millenium?

At the second coming of Jesus Christ The dead in Christ are raise and the righteous living are caught up to him. The lost that are alive at that time die. Thus there is no living person on this planet. This is the beginning of the millenium. Satan is bound by circumstance as there is no one for him to deceive on earth which he is restricted to.

At the end of the 1000 years the rest of the dead are resurrected(the second resurrection) and satan can marshall them to attack the Holy City that came down from Heaven.

For more detailed information
https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4989/t/1000-years-of-peace

ewq1938 · Aug 25, 2018

HTacianas said:
http://orthochristian.com/86555.html

http://orthochristian.com/86555.html

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10307a.htm

There is no denial of the Millennium there. Only Amil propaganda against Premil's beliefs of the Millennium. Amil's believe we are in the Millennium now, meaning even they believe in a Millennium.

DavidPT · Aug 25, 2018

claninja said:
Thanks for the suggestion. I will update it.

In ezekiel 38, Gog comes against Israel in the last days:
Ezekiel 38:16 and you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.”

However, in revelation Gog-magog comes against God's city AFTER the millenium
Revelation 20:7-9 then the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.

If the last days occurs, as you say, before the millenium, how can Gog attack God's city after the millenium?

Maybe a different Gog meant in Revelation 20? But if not, I tend to agree that you might have a valid point here. I posted the following the other day in another thread.

DavidPT said:
If anything, if I'm going to be intellectually honest here, by using Ezekiel 38 and 39 to determine the timing of the thousand years, these two chapters would prove the thousand years would have to before armageddon, not after it.

What I find interesting, regardless that I'm Premil, is this. It appears that Revelation 20 chronologically follows Revelation 19. If Ezekiel 38 have the events of Revelation 20 in mind, and Ezekiel 39 have the events of Revelation 19 in mind, this seems to indicate, that since Ezekiel 38 precedes ch 39, that might mean the thousand years and satan's little season both precede the events of Revelation 19 then, that chapter meaning the 2nd coming. Have to admit, in the event this might be the case, this is a pretty brilliant way to hide this in plain site, so to speak.

Even though there are a lot of things that don't add up to me about Amil, there are still things that do though. This being one example of one of them. Unfortunately though, very few, if any Amils, would even think to use Ezekiel 38 and 39 to try and prove their position.

Then I posted the following after that post.

DavidPT said:
The thing is, to begin with I don't think Ezekiel 38 is meaning after the thousand years, though I believe that Ezekiel 39 is meaning before. But if I did believe that though, about Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 20, that tends to prove a position such as Amil, rather than Premil. The majority of the events in Ezekiel 38 and 39 happen in this age, thus precede the 2nd coming, while some of the events occur during the 2nd coming, and some occur after the 2nd coming. The burning of weapons for 7 years, for example, this is meaning after the 2nd coming.

As to the intellectually honest part, I was only meaning that in regards to me, thus wasn't projecting that on someone else. But meaning, me, if I am to be intellectually honest here, if Revelation 20 means Ezekiel 38, and Revelation 19 means Ezekiel 39, this tends to prove Amil rather than Premil. And then I provided reasons why. I haven't switched to Amil or anything, nor have any plans to do so in the near future, but was only providing an honest opinion, in the event Revelation 20 means Ezekiel 38, and Revelation 19 means Ezekiel 39.

As to the name of the war per Ezekiel 38:8, I don't know the name of it, but one thing I do know is this.

Ezekiel 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

It is ludicrous that this could be meaning a thousand years after Jesus had already returned. Look what the text says---and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

They would not already know that though, the fact Jesus, who Himself is the Lord God, that He is the LORD? There's no reasonable logic to that, that God Himself would have been physically present on the planet for an entire thousand years, but during this same thousand years the following isn't even true yet----and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

HTacianas · Aug 25, 2018

Well, you have to read the articles.

Original Happy Camper · Aug 25, 2018

claninja said:
In ezekiel 38, Gog comes against Israel in the last days:
Ezekiel 38:16 and you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.”

However, in revelation Gog-magog comes against God's city AFTER the millenium
Revelation 20:7-9 then the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.

If the last days occurs, as you say, before the millenium, how can Gog attack God's city after the millenium?

Probation closes when Micheal stands up. Just as it was in the days of NOAH when the door was closed.

Question what is the last days referencing. Salvation or time?

ewq1938 · Aug 25, 2018

claninja said:
Ezekiel 38:2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog

There still is no "God and Magog" like we see in Rev 20. It's only Gog that God speaks about coming to attack.

Eze 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

This also doesn't happen in Rev 20 as all of God and Magog are destroyed.

Eze 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
Eze 39:10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
Eze 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

This doesn't happen in Rev 20 either. Everyone is burned up...there is no burying needed and especially not 7 months of it. After God destroys Satan's armies the day of judgment begins...not 7 months later plus there is no day of judgment found in Ezekiel 38 or 39.

Vastly different.

ewq1938 · Aug 25, 2018

HTacianas said:
Well, you have to read the articles.

I did. They aren't against the Amil Millennium only the Premil one. So as I said before, no one has rejected the idea of a Mill. and certainly not Christianity as you claimed.

claninja · Aug 25, 2018

Original Happy Camper said:
At the second coming of Jesus Christ The dead in Christ are raise and the righteous living are caught up to him. The lost that are alive at that time die. Thus there is no living person on this planet. This is the beginning of the millenium. Satan is bound by circumstance as there is no one for him to deceive on earth which he is restricted to.

At the end of the 1000 years the rest of the dead are resurrected(the second resurrection) and satan can marshall them to attack the Holy City that came down from Heaven.

For more detailed information
https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4989/t/1000-years-of-peace

This doesn't answer the question.

Original Happy Camper said:
At the second coming of Jesus Christ The dead in Christ are raise and the righteous living are caught up to him. The lost that are alive at that time die. Thus there is no living person on this planet. This is the beginning of the millenium. Satan is bound by circumstance as there is no one for him to deceive on earth which he is restricted to.

At the end of the 1000 years the rest of the dead are resurrected(the second resurrection) and satan can marshall them to attack the Holy City that came down from Heaven.

For more detailed information
https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4989/t/1000-years-of-peace

Right, So how can Gog and magog battle after the millennium, which is after the last days, if Ezekiel states Gog will battle in the last days (before millennium)?

When do the last days end?

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