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As someone who leans towards preterism, I too believe that unbelieving people exist after the coming of Christ.
Jesus teaches them back in Matthew 12:32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.How could they ask about the end of an age they had no idea was even coming?
I don't, we know now from our History book when the temple fell. It is recorded in the Greek history because they used the stones from the temple to build the Colosseum, because they found a historic plaque there to that effect. The arena was finished 10 years after they tore the temple down. There was 100 days of celebration when it was built. The building still stands today and at the time it was know for the blood. Arena means sand and there was a sand floor designed to clean up the blood.1) Where in Matt 24 do you assert Jesus answers their Question about WHEN the temple would fall?
There are many, many, many different names for this age. Holy Spirit Dispensation, Age of Grace, Time of the Gentiles. Here in Matthew chapter 24 they call it the age to come. If I used that term it would not have much meaning for us today like it did for them back then. Of course the question was when would Jesus return. Often there is a reference to the clouds. Because more then one Old Testament Saint writes about the event. They were never looking for Jesus to come as a Lamb, they were looking for Him to come as a Lion. All of Jerusalem would have followed Him if He came to put an end to the Romans ruling over them. This is why Pilate washed his hands. When he talked to Jesus he was told that Jesus was not going to lead a rebellion against the Roman empire. So Pilate wanted to release him because there was no harm in Him.2) Hos is it the apostles could have been asking about the end of the Church age when they Had no Idea the Church age was even going to come into existence?
As far as I know most people teach that there are three events. When Jesus comes for His church, He meets the Church in the air. Then when Jesus returns with His church and this time his feet touch the ground. Then there are the events that take place at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ when we rule and reign with Jesus on the earth. Then there is a New Heaven and a New Earth so His reign is everlasting and never ends.This is subjective. I could say the same about you. Let's stick to objective arguments.
Please answer the following questions:
According to Jesus, when does he repay those for what they have done?
Matthew 16:17 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
According to Paul, when are those who did not believe punished?
2 thessalonians 1:7-8 when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
The end of Judiasm came. It definately came. When did Jesus speak in layered riddles. He actually said he taught openly. He did speak in parables but those are not layered riddles. He even explained many of them and there was one meaning altogether. The end of that age came and it came with fire and destructiong. The Gospel was preached to the known world and the end came. When Paul wrote that the end had not yet come, it hadn't at that point in time.Yet the end has not come. I speak to Christ's words not Paul, it is possible their context was different. Jesus is well know to speak in layered riddles, with what is received being one thing and what he actually means being another. I see Christ speaking to both the direct audience and the further audiences that read his words because he is Christ and he is able to be that good.
Since you threw preterism in here, I have to wonder what you are meaning by the coming of Christ?
I guess you need to explain what you are meaning by what you said above, so that way no one misunderstands what you are meaning.
This coming:
Mark 13:26 then they shall see the Son of Man coming in clouds with much power and glory
Preterists believe this is what the New Jerusalem is:
No more sea (no difference between jew and gentile)
Ephesians 2:19 Then, therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God
Revelation 21:1 and the sea is not any more
The New Jerusalem/Church is the bride of the lamb
Ephesians 6:31 for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and they shall be — the two — for one flesh;’ this secret is great, and I speak in regard to Christ and to the assembly;
Revelation 21:9 ‘Come, I will shew thee the bride of the Lamb — the wife,’
The apostles are the foundation of the Church/New Jerusalem
Ephesians 2:20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being chief corner-[stone]
Revelation 21:14 and the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
God dwells with the Church/New Jerusalem
Ephesians 2:22 whom also ye are builded together, for a habitation of God in the Spirit.
Revelation 21:3 ‘Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them — their God
The new Jerusalem is where God dwells with his people forever, whether they are on earth with earthly bodies, born again (rests his feet) or in heaven (place of his throne) with new bodies
Ezekiel 43:7 and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever
Isaiah 66:1 “Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool.
Notice there are nations outside of the new Jerusalem on earth:
Revelation 21:24-27
By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Notice there are those who practice falsehood OUTSIDE of the city on earth.
Revelation 22:14-15
Blessed are those who wash their robes,c so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Nations will still need healing after the New Jerusalem comes
Revelation 22:2 And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations
**with all this being said, the preterist perspective is that Christ consummated the new Jerusalem (the body of Christ) at his 2nd coming, at the destruction of Jerusalem (Babylon), thus we forever dwell with God, whether on earth or in heaven
For it is written:
And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”
In order to understand where you are coming from, I first need to be on the same page with you about which form of preterism you are meaning here? There is full preterism and there is partial. Which one are you meaning here? Is the 2nd coming to you still in the future, or do you think it already happened---full preterism?
Partial preterism is really just another term for amil, IMO. This is the full preterists perspective.
I can't say I grasp full preterism then. If Christ has already returned, thus no return still in the future, how does a resurrection of the dead involving those who have died in our lifetimes, as an example, ever occur?
The preterist position will be shown to be completely false when the Lord returns and the DOTL judgements fall on the wicked-and those holding such view points.
The question is pertaining to state of Jesus glorified body. Mat 18:20 is a quote from Jesus before his resurrection, Thomas feeling the scars of Jesus is post-resurrection. Which of these best reveals to us Jesus glorified flesh?Yes. So?
What does that have to do with my question you quoted?
What is your answer to my question you quoted?
in that His parables had surface meanings, meanings that was explained by Jesus and further means that can only be grasped if you know the entire gospelThe end of Judiasm came. It definately came. When did Jesus speak in layered riddles. He actually said he taught openly. He did speak in parables but those are not layered riddles. He even explained many of them and there was one meaning altogether. The end of that age came and it came with fire and destructiong. The Gospel was preached to the known world and the end came. When Paul wrote that the end had not yet come, it hadn't at that point in time.
He explained his parables to his disciples and thoroughly. I doubt you understand them better than they did.in that His parables had surface meanings, meanings that was explained by Jesus and further means that can only be grasped if you know the entire gospel
Yet we are all here debating the words of Christ as to when the end will come.He explained his parables to his disciples and thoroughly. I doubt you understand them better than they did.
The parables about the end of that age we’re about the Jewish rejection of the Messiah and judgement. I’d have to think about it more though. He did tell them about after that time too. People who want to debate but never come to knowledge debate a lot.Yet we are all here debating the words of Christ as to when the end will come.
Daniel 9 prophecies as far as 70 ADAre you saying that revelation is a new prophecy in addition to the OT?
so thenWhen Jesus comes he punishes those who did not believe or obey God with eternal destruction. If there is another war (gog-magog) AFTER the millennium, where do these unbelievers come from, if God destroys unbelievers when he comes?
1 Thessalonians 2:7-10
This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.
When Jesus comes, the resurrection occurs:
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him
1 thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first
The resurrection is the defeat of the death, which is the last enemy:
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
If Jesus comes BEFORE the millennium, death is not the last enemy. However, if Jesus comes AFTER the millennium, the destruction of Satan, Gog-magog, then death is the last enemy.
The question is pertaining to state of Jesus glorified body. Mat 18:20 is a quote from Jesus before his resurrection, Thomas feeling the scars of Jesus is post-resurrection. Which of these best reveals to us Jesus glorified flesh?
The question is pertaining to state of Jesus glorified body. Mat 18:20 is a quote from Jesus before his resurrection, Thomas feeling the scars of Jesus is post-resurrection. Which of these best reveals to us Jesus glorified flesh?
John 16:7I contend Jesus was not raised in His glorified Body, it was the self-same body that hung on the cross and was laid in the tomb. He Did not receive His glorified Body until Acts 1:9
John himself, who witnessed His post resurrection, pre ascension Body first hand with His own eyes, Indicates that He had still NOT seen His Glorified Body:
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
At this point, after the Ascension, John is clear that He had NOT seen Jesus "as He is" presently, so, some sort of Appreciable Change to Jesus' body took place AFTER John last saw Him in the flesh.
I contend that "appreciable change" was the Glorification of His Body, The returning of His body back to the condition it was in before the foundation of the world, and it took place the moment the Cloud received Him out of their sight.
As to the timing of Christ's glorification, we have the following scriptures:
John 7.39. 'But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.'
Here we see that the spirit would be given when Jesus was glorified. During the forty days after his resurrection, the HS was not given. Only after the ascension was the HS given.
John 12.16. 'These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.'
In the context of this verse Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey and the people cheered. This, again, was only understood by them after his ascension and not during the 40 days.
John 17.24. ' "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world." '
Here, Jesus expressly declared that the disciples would 'behold [His] glory' when they were with him where he was. This was not referring anytime on earth, but must be referring to after his ascension.
I contend Jesus was NOT resurrected in His Glorified Body, He was resurrected in the Self same Body that hung on the cross and Had no different supernatural powers or attributes to it than He had before the Crucifixion (save the fact it could no longer be put to death)
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