When did you decide to become a creationist?

thaumaturgy · Nov 14, 2007

Baggins said:
It is very sad that the scientific world needs a quote mine project in the first place; it is, after all, to prevent misrepresentation by people who claim to be moral because they are religious.

But as long as there are Christians ready and willing to lie for Jesus I'm afraid there will have to resources so their lies can be revealed for what they are.

I watched PBS Nova last night about the Dover v Kitzmiller case. A lot of interesting stuff about that case that I hadn't heard before. The most fascinating perhaps was the allegations of perjury against two of the ID proponents in the case:

After the trial, there were calls for the defendants accused of not presenting their case honestly to be put on trial for committing perjury. "Witnesses either testified inconsistently, or lied outright under oath on several occasions," Jones wrote. "The inescapable truth is that both [Alan] Bonsell and [William] Buckingham lied at their January 3, 2005 depositions. Bonsell repeatedly failed to testify in a truthful manner. Defendants have unceasingly attempted in vain to distance themselves from their own actions and statements, which culminated in repetitious, untruthful testimony." An editorial in the York Daily Record described their behaviour as both ironic and sinful, saying that the "unintelligent designers of this fiasco should not walk away unscathed". Other discussions concluded that for various reasons it was unlikely that prosecutions would proceed(SOURCE)

I found that so amazing. I was also very interested in the forensics around the development of the text "Of Pandas and People", sort of an intermediate "fossil" indicating Intelligent Design's true nature as Creationism repackaged.

"...in a draft of OPAP, there was an incomplete erasure of the word 'creationist', with an insertion of 'design proponents' into it, meaning that students might have had the opportunity to learn the position of 'cdesign proponentsists' on these matters. This verbal intermediate fossil was uncovered through the patient digging of Dr. Forrest."(SOURCE)

In general it appears that there is very little that is conducted above-board in Creationism v science. The creationists want so badly to destroy science, even though they don't understand it, so they are trying every way imaginable. Now the "trojan horse" of ID.

It's never bad to poke and prod and test and re-test and challenge and re-challenge any and all scientific theories. But it should always be done for honest and forthright reasons.

Creationists don't attack evolution because evolution is a questionable theory, they attack for one reason and one reason only: they think it will remove their religion from them.

And that, simply put, isn't sufficient grounds to overturn a scientific theory that says nothing about religion.

I don't think most Creationists are dishonest. I think, however, there are "creationist strategies" that are formulated like a "guerilla war" on science, and those are predicated on sometimes dishonest approaches.

Most creationists are simply uninformed, uneducated and scientifically illiterate, so they are easily manipulated by demagogues who somehow convince them that evolution denigrates them and threatens their immortal soul.

No doubt even the demagogues themselves believe that truly and honestly. Some just don't see that winning the battle for souls by violating ones own morality is not worthwhile.

Even Solomon and the two women didn't have the baby hacked apart.

Wiccan_Child · Nov 14, 2007

Inan3 said:
Good morning WC. How are you this wonderful day?

Not bad. Actually, I've had a fantastic week so far. You?

Inan3 · Nov 14, 2007

Blayz said:
No I don't. I explicitly state that the USA has picked on countries since it gave up isolationism after WWII.

And aren't you glad they did.

How and why did Australia's relationship with Britain and the US change during World War 2?

First answer by anthony shalala. Last edit by Canchimooru. Contributor trust: 47 [recommend contributor]. Question popularity: 432 [recommend question]

Answer

Australia and Britain were very close, mainly due to the fact that Britain founded Australia, and Australia considered them their "mother country". However in World War 2, the relationship started to change, and it started with the British Prime Minister Churchill diverting Australia's 6th and 7th Divisions to reinforce their own troops in Burma when Australia needed them for their defence due to the Japanese advance. This was done without consultaion, but eventually, Australian Prime Minister Curtin, managed to get the troops back. This caused some of the changes between Australia and Great Britain. Another reason is because Britain could not help Australia when they needed them most, even when Australia helped Britain when they needed it. This caused PM Curtin to publically appeal to the US for military assistance, and this was done on 27 December, 1941 (I think). The US came immediately, as they were also eager to drive back the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbour. The US commander Douglas MacArthur arrived in March the next year and became Supreme Commander of all Allied Forces in the South-West Pacific, and Australia became his headquarters for command. The US military assistance was vital in driving back the Japanese, and they were considered as saviours by Australians. However, as time wore on, the relationship began to sour, with Australian commanders resenting MacArthur's arrogant manner and the way he deployed Australian troops and undervalued their efforts. Sometimes, fights would occur, which occassionally became serious, resulting with deaths. However, the US did help Australia drive the Japanese back and win the war. The original relationship between Britain and Australia resumed, but with Australia being more cautious and independent.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_and_why_did_Australia's_relationship_with_Britain_and_the_US_change_during_World_War_2

Needless to say, here in the Greatest Country on the Earth, it was never an issue to begin with.

Once again you should be thankful for the USA and not bad mouthing it. You wouldn't be the great country you are without us. Why do you guys always have to put this country down. In our time the USA HAS been the greatest asset to all the world. BTW that's because God's blessing has been upon us. The reason you see changes for the bad in the US is because the US has made some foolish decisions pulling themselves farther away from the principles of God. It's because of the prayers of the Christians that there is any blessing still here and we will continue to pray for our country. A praying country is a blessed country.

2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

United States-Australia relations refers to international relations between Australia and the United States of America. U.S.-Australian relations have been close throughout the history of Australia. While Australia has traditionally been aligned with the Commonwealth of Nations, it has strengthened its relationship with the United States since 1942 as Britain's influence in Asia declined and the United States influence increased. At the governmental level, United-States-Australia relationships are formalised by the ANZUS treaty and Australia-United States Free Trade Agreement. Moreover, the United States has had a considerable impact on Australian culture.

It is said that the relationship between the United States of America and Australia is similar to that of the United States and Canada. Both the United States and Australia share some common ancestry and history (see British Empire), having both been British colonies. Both countries had native peoples who were dispossessed of their land. Both have been part of the Western alliance of nations in various wars. There are numerous other similarities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States-Australia_relations

Nah, I prefer Hansel and Gretel if I am going to read a fairy tale. Much more coherent and believable.

The Bible has a better ending for those who believe.

Inan3 · Nov 14, 2007

Wiccan_Child said:
Not bad. Actually, I've had a fantastic week so far. You?

a yah!

theFijian · Nov 14, 2007

Patashu said:
I'll say it again:
The point of having a worldview is making sure that worldview is correct.
Ergo your worldview should be testable.

Oh I quite agree.

Inan3 · Nov 14, 2007

thaumaturgy said:
So God simply doesn't care about what people would like. Fair enough. How many get to go to Hell before he "reveals all" and "proves himself"?

There is an apocryphal story about a famous atheist who, when asked what he would say to God upon dying and being put in front of the Heavenly Throne. When God asked him why he didn't believe, the famous atheist merely replied: "you didn't provide enough evidence that you existed, Lord."

I used to teach at the college level. One thing you learn quickly as a teacher is that if there is a large group of your students who completely mess up a section of a test, it may not be that the students are all fools, but that you, the teacher, didn't do a very good job of teaching the material.

And what would those things be? And why should I trust that you would know them?

If God doesn't necessarily care if people "get it" (Mark 4:12), maybe you can pick up his slack and tell us what is foolish not to believe and why we should believe you. Presumably God can take care of himself.

TMT TNT, how are you? Long time no hear. God does care. And if I can pass the test it's got to be easy enough for you or anyone to pass it. In this case it's the students and not the teachers fault.

Patashu · Nov 14, 2007

theFijian said:
Oh I quite agree.

So...

How do you test creationism?

Loudmouth · Nov 14, 2007

Inan3 said:
In our time the USA HAS been the greatest asset to all the world. BTW that's because God's blessing has been upon us.

Actually, its because of our access to raw materials and industry. Nice try though.

The reason you see changes for the bad in the US is because the US has made some foolish decisions pulling themselves farther away from the principles of God. It's because of the prayers of the Christians that there is any blessing still here and we will continue to pray for our country. A praying country is a blessed country.

What is going "bad"?

The Bible has a better ending for those who believe.

Hinduism has a better restart if you believe.

thaumaturgy · Nov 14, 2007

Inan3 said:
In this case it's the students and not the teachers fault.

Just say it is the students' fault et viola it is! The students were just asking for it. Wait, that doesn't sound right.

Sorry, but there are many here on this board and on this planet who have done quite a bit of studying for the test. But further more, you yourself stated;

The Word of God will prove itself and God will prove Himself. He will do it in His time not yours.

(emphasis added)

So presumably God is waiting? Why? Why is he waiting while countless people follow this benighted path:

[BIBLE]Mark 4:12[/BIBLE]

"lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

Perish the thought!

Or maybe it's all gnosticism, ya think?

theFijian · Nov 14, 2007

Patashu said:
So...

How do you test creationism?

You think I'm a Creationist?

Inan3 · Nov 14, 2007

thaumaturgy said:
[BIBLE]Mark 4:12[/BIBLE]

"lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

Perish the thought!

Or maybe it's all gnosticism, ya think?

This verse is relating that THEY have closed their eyes & ears lest they should see, hear, be converted, and have their sins forgiven. They don't want any of it. THEY don't want to see. THEY don't want to hear. THEY don't want to be converted. THEY don't want their sins forgiven.

Pete Harcoff · Nov 14, 2007

Inan3 said:
The reason you see changes for the bad in the US is because the US has made some foolish decisions pulling themselves farther away from the principles of God. It's because of the prayers of the Christians that there is any blessing still here and we will continue to pray for our country. A praying country is a blessed country.

I came across a study awhile back which studied various social "ills" (i.e. crime, suicide, I think STD transmission, etc) and correlated those societal ills with degree of religious adherence in various 1st world countries.

The interesting thing was that with the exception of suicides in Japan, the US had the highest number of social ills, but also the most "religious" country.

Now, I'm not going to suggest that religion causes societal problems (indeed, I think social problems cause religion), but it's pretty clear religion doesn't solve social problems. So you might want to look at a more realistic solution.

I'll try to dig up that study again.

ETA: Here it is: http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html

And here is the most telling snippit:

In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly.

Inan3 · Nov 14, 2007

Loudmouth said:
Actually, its because of our access to raw materials and industry. Nice try though.

Without God's blessing a nation can dry up in resources.

What is going "bad"?

This country going against the laws of God.

Inan3 · Nov 14, 2007

Pete Harcoff said:
I came across a study awhile back which studied various social "ills" (i.e. crime, suicide, I think STD transmission, etc) and correlated those societal ills with degree of religious adherence in various 1st world countries.

The interesting thing was that with the exception of suicides in Japan, the US had the highest number of social ills, but also the most "religious" country.

Now, I'm not going to suggest that religion causes societal problems (indeed, I think social problems cause religion), but it's pretty clear religion doesn't solve social problems. So you might want to look at a more realistic solution.

I'll try to dig up that study again.

I don't deny this. That's what I mean about things going bad. It's not just having religions that brings the blessing. It's trusting in the God of the Bible. The more we turn our backs on Him the more we will see the decline of our nation. You know One Nation Under God andIn God We Trust being removed from our culture.

Pete Harcoff · Nov 14, 2007

Inan3 said:
I don't deny this. That's what I mean about things going bad. It's not just having religions that brings the blessing. It's trusting in the God of the Bible. The more we turn our backs on Him the more we will see the decline of our nation.

Er, I really think you should just read the study. The least religious 1st world nations have on average the least social problems. "Trusting in the God of the Bible" is not going to fix social problems. Actually fixing the social problems will fix the social problems.

thaumaturgy · Nov 14, 2007

Blayz · Nov 14, 2007

Pete Harcoff said:
I came across a study awhile back which studied various social "ills" (i.e. crime, suicide, I think STD transmission, etc) and correlated those societal ills with degree of religious adherence in various 1st world countries.

Did you see some of the fundamentalist Islamic sects in Pakistan are banning the polio vaccine because they believe it is a secret plot to sterilize the men?

Pete Harcoff · Nov 14, 2007

Blayz said:
Did you see some of the fundamentalist Islamic sects in Pakistan are banning the polio vaccine because they believe it is a secret plot to sterilize the men?

Didn't know that, but yikes!

TeddyKGB · Nov 14, 2007

Inan3 said:
Without God's blessing a nation can dry up in resources.

Because resources would last forever otherwise. God has been poofing oil into the ground for hundreds of years.

This country going against the laws of God.

There hasn't been a country follow the "laws of God" since Israel I.

Inan3 · Nov 14, 2007

TeddyKGB said:
Because resources would last forever otherwise. God has been poofing oil into the ground for hundreds of years.

There hasn't been a country follow the "laws of God" since Israel I.

My point was in general. I didn't want to get into specifics because then I knew for sure someone would complain about that so I used a general statement "laws of God".

When did you decide to become a creationist?

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