When did the Church Commit Apostasy?

[Fixation On God]

Clearly, there are quite a few people here who disagree that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ. That's fine; if we all agreed, this board would serve no purpose other than to have 'me too' posts all day long, and that would be boring.

Now, clearly Christ founded ONE Church, one holy, catholic (meaning universal) and apostolic church. There were, over time, several bishoprics established, but they were all part of the same Church. On this, I believe, we can agree. If not, then frankly, you shouldn't be in this part of the boards, because that's in the Nicene Creed.

So...Christ founded one single Church. I'd like to have someone explain to me exactly how and when that Church went into apostasy. I've had Acts 20:29-30 quoted at me several times (three times in one post alone), which states that "of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them" as an explanation why the Catholic Church teachings aren't accepted by certain people (you know who you are). So when did the Church fail to heed in Christ's commands? When did it commit Apostasy?

And prove it scripturally.

 

[cobweb]

There are several ancient groups that make the claim that they are the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Roman Catholic Church is only one of those. There is also the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Church.

Who split from who is a matter of debate.

 

[Standing Up]

Circa 424 First: Assyrian Church of the East.
Assyrian Church of the East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Circa 451 Second: OO.

Circa 1054 Third: EO.

Circa 1500 Last: Protestant.

Before all of those, however, were the Quartodecimans. This is from where the apostasy began circa 95-200ad.

To show one proof from Scripture, we'd have to agree that a Jewish day changed (began/ended) about sunset. As in evening and morning one day, evening and morning day two, ... (Gen.).

 

[Stryder06]

I don't believe there is any scripture that says when the church would apostatize, rather it just states that it will. I'd say sometime after the ascension of Christ.

 

[Fixation On God]

I was joking about the scriptural proof part.

Anyway, the Church can't have failed after the close of the apostolic age. No matter what 'ravening wolves' and false teachings may have come out, Christ promised the Church would never, EVER fail. He also promised that Peter's faith would not fail, nor would that of his successors.

So, with all the heresies that have come out of various bishropics within the Church, the Church has never fallen from Christ's teachings as a whole. That is why heresies like Arianism, Machineanism, Monophysitism, and Gnosticism have been expunged from the Catholic Church.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Clearly, there are quite a few people here who disagree that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ. That's fine; if we all agreed, this board would serve no purpose other than to have 'me too' posts all day long, and that would be boring.

Now, clearly Christ founded ONE Church, one holy, catholic (according to Catholics) and apostolic church. There were, over time, several bishoprics established, but they were all part of the same Church. On this, Catholics an myself believe, we can agree. If not, then frankly, you shouldn't be in this part of the boards, because that's in the Nicene Creed.

So...Christ founded one single Church.

And prove it scripturally.

You seem to be assuming and imposing many things, as well as confusing Protestantism with Restitutionalism.

Protestants do NOT generally agree with the RCC that Jesus founded a specific, singular, institutional denomination - and thus it was/is infallible/unaccountable - whether such denomination be the CC or some other. Protestants tend to believe that the one holy catholic church/ the communion of saints/ the mystical union of believers consists of PEOPLE, specifically Christian PEOPLE: the whole company of such, past and present. It was, is and never will be a denominational institution. Thus, we tend to NOT embrace that the RCC was founded by Jesus, was ONCE infallible/unaccountable and then (somehow!) "fell" from that and later had to be replaced by a new denomination, founded by Jesus, infallible/unaccountable. THAT, my friend, is a view NOT of Protestantism but of Restitutionalism and you need to take that to the LDS forum, it is the largest Restitutionist group in the USA.


Since the RCC and LDS seem to be the two principle denominations that claim that Jesus founded such, that such IS the Church of Christ and thus infallible/unaccountable and the only true authentic and authoritative denomination and thus CANNOT be apostate, then the "burden of proof" is entirely and totally with two (and only two) denominations: the RCC and LDS. YOU are the one who needs to "prove it with Scriptures." Good luck, because we all know the Scriptures don't so much as EVEN MENTION the RCC or LDS. About anything. Not once. But, the ball is in YOUR court....





.

 

[Fixation On God]

You seem to be assuming and imposing many things, as well as confusing Protestantism with Restitutionalism.

I just made some changes to my original post, they're in bold red.

I don't believe there is any scripture that says when the church would apostatize, rather it just states that it will. I'd say sometime after the ascension of Christ.

I was joking about the scriptural proof part.

So...despite any historical evidence that shows the Church had failed, and despite Christ's words that the Church would stand firm against Satan's minions forever, you believe it did, in fact, fail?

whether such denomination be the CC or some other. Protestants tend to believe that the one holy catholic church/ the communion of saints/ the mystical union of believers consists of PEOPLE, specifically Christian PEOPLE: the whole company of such, past and present.

Matt 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden."
There is a visible, tangible Church on Earth, which Christ promised could never fail.

from that and later had to be replaced by a new denomination, founded by Jesus, infallible/unaccountable.

Since the RCC and LDS seem to be the two principle denominations that claim that Jesus founded such

Christ only founded one Church; all others were founded by men. Would any of those churches be true?

But, the ball is in YOUR court....

Glad you realize that

 

[Fixation On God]

There are several ancient groups that make the claim that they are the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Roman Catholic Church is only one of those. There is also the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Church.

Who split from who is a matter of debate.

You know that that is purely because of "The Great Schism"

Episcopaliaens believe the same thing.
I noticed your EO and you don't believe yourself to be a Schismatic, although Rome may disagree. EO's can be argued on the fact of the first Church being "The Church of Antioch." But that's beside my OP so I won't get into that.

 

[Fixation On God]

16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I think this best shows why the Catholic church is no longer the church of Christ. We can all look at the church know the atrocities they have committed in the name of God and see that they are a tree which bears bad fruit.

So...despite any historical evidence that shows the Church had failed, and despite Christ's words that the Church would stand firm against Satan's minions forever, you believe it did, in fact, fail?

P.S: I was joking about the scriptural proof part.

 

[cobweb]

You know that that is purely because of "The Great Schism"

Episcopaliaens believe the same thing.
I noticed your EO and you don't believe yourself to be a Schismatic, although Rome may disagree. EO's can be argued on the fact of the first Church being "The Church of Antioch." But that's beside my OP so I won't get into that.

Of the original patriachates, how many sided with Rome in 1054?

 

[Fixation On God]

Of the original patriachates, how many sided with Rome in 1054?

Cobweb, I can't argue with you, because of your beliefs.

Behold a statement made by a EO:

Orthodox believe that we are the church as founded by Jesus. So the question 'when did the Catholic church fail?' is in a sense not the right question. As is the challenge to 'proove it scripturally' as we are a church that uses Holy tradition, the words of the Church Fathers and so on.

For us, as shown in Acts 15 the church always acted with a concord of bishops. Hence they say 'we do this'. A number of quotes have been posted by various posters to show that everyone from Ireneaus through to Augustine of Hippo and beyond believed this. This unity in diversity is a reflection of the Triune mystery; on the nature of God Himself.

Of the Book of Acts...

"But observe how Peter does everything with the common consent; nothing imperiously."
(St. John Chrysotomon - Homily 3 on Acts 1:12)​

Other church fathers say:

“Faith is the foundation of the Church, for it was not of the person but of the faith of Peter that it was said that the gates of hell should not prevail against it; it is the confession of faith that has vanquished hell. Jesus Christ is the Rock. He did not deny the grace of His name when He called him Peter, because he borrowed from the rock the constancy and solidity of his faith. Endeavour then, thyself to be a rock ‘thy rock is thy faith, and faith is the foundation of the Church. If thou art a rock, thou shalt be in the Church for the Church is built upon the rock.” (St. Cyprian On the Unity of the Catholic Church, cap. 4-5)​

“Therefore Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. Therefore, He saith, ‘Thou art Peter; and upon this Rock’ which thou hast confessed, upon this Rock which thou hast acknowledged saying, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church:’ that is upon Myself, the Son of the living God, ‘will I build My Church.’ I will build thee upon Myself, not Myself upon thee. For men who wish to be built upon men, said, ‘I am of Paul: and I of Appollos; and I of Cephas,’ who is Peter, but upon the Rock, said ‘But I am of Christ. And when the Apostle Paul ascertained that he was chosen, and Christ despised, he said, ‘Is Christ divided’? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were ye baptized in the name of Paul’? And, as not in the name of Paul, so neither in the name of Peter; but in the name of Christ: that Peter might be built upon the Rock, not the Rock upon Peter.” (Augustine - Sermon 26 on the Gospel of Matthew XIV:25)​

(Peter)... had not the primacy over the disciples but among the disciples. His primacy among the disciples was the same as that of Stephen among the deacons.” (Augustine Sermon 10 on Sts Peter & Paul).​

”For neither did Peter, whom first the Lord chose, when Paul disputed with him afterwards about the circumcision, claim anything to himself insolently, nor arrogantly assume anything, so as to say that he held primacy, and that he out to be obeyed to novices and those lately come.” (St. Cyprian Epistle 70 "Concerning the baptism of Heretics")​

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.

whether such denomination be the CC or some other. Protestants tend to believe that the one holy catholic church/ the communion of saints/ the mystical union of believers consists of PEOPLE, specifically Christian PEOPLE: the whole company of such, past and present.

Matt 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden."
There is a visible, tangible Church on Earth, which Christ promised could never fail.

Matthew 5:14 doesn't mention The Catholic Church (or any other denomination).

Matthew 5:14 doesn't say that the Catholic Church (or any other denomination) is infallible and incapable of error or apostasy.

IMHO, the "you" refers to PEOPLE since Jesus was talking to PEOPLE. The context is not the specific, singular, Catholic denomination (or any other).

Matthew 5:14 says nothing about The Catholic Church being guaranteed to always infallibly follow. Or even that the church would.

Yes, I think Christian faith and love should be visible, not hidden. Now, I don't know what that means vis-a-vis the RCC or LDS or WELS denominations, none of which have a heart or soul or are capable to faith or love (only people are).

from that and later had to be replaced by a new denomination, founded by Jesus, infallible/unaccountable. Since the RCC and LDS seem to be the two principle denominations that claim that Jesus founded such

Christ only founded one Church

... That is the Protestant position. However, it is the RCC and LDS position that Jesus founded ONE specific, particular, institutional denomination (itself, of course). Neither has a shred of anything to support the claim of self along for self alone.

But, the ball is in YOUR court....

Glad you realize that

LOL, I'm glad YOU do! Maybe in some thread you'll provide the proof from the words of Jesus that He founded the specific, particular Catholic denomination and promised that it would be infallible in perpetuity.




.

 

[cobweb]

Cobweb, I can't argue with you, because of your beliefs.

Behold a statement made by a EO:

Sure you can. You make a claim that the Roman Catholic Church is the One Holy Apostolic Chuch. I simply say we disagree quite strongly on that point.

Of the 5 original patriarchates, one could possibly make the claim the the Oriental Orthodox are from the Church of Alexandria. I doubt anyone would deny that the Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, and Constantinople are still in communion with each other. Of the five, four are not in communion with Rome.

You can't walk out of a room full of people and then complain that everyone left you.

 

[buzzini]

"Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" Hence anyone who received Jesus is part of Jesus' body, is part of the church, and is a church himself. to set any regulations other then the above stated is heresy, if not to boast one's eminent domain, there is no other benefit.

Church is a spiritual body, not the literal church on earth. As God is spirit, hence the body is also spirit. But the church on earth are many and has many transformation. Not just one group to the next, but thru time when truth is revealed, those who received it can be considered church too. hence the Jewish church with law can be considered one, and Abraham can also be considered one. Each succession by the next, because each failed in the end and was diluted with false. Hence Jesus came again to set up church by revealing truth. And later the truth is confused with false in 1600, and later a new church again is revealed by protestants and many other movements.

 

[Fixation On God]

Protestants = Schismatic

You seem to me to be avoiding the point here. If in your view the true church between 100 AD and 1400 AD was not the Catholic Church, then where was it?

Maybe in some thread you'll provide the proof from the words of Jesus that He founded the specific,

Protestants are no better at it then Catholics...

Side Note: ALL the ancient Christian Churches of Apostolic foundation (Catholic, Eastern orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopian etc.) Hold Mary in virtual identical regard. This is despite over fifteen hundred years of division in many cases. But all hold to the Apostolic Teachings about Mary handed down.

You're lutheran. I heard a Lutheran say :The apostles preached that faith alone in Jesus as the Son of God was (and is) sufficient for salvation.

When really the Apostles preached no such thing. Luther had to fiddle with his translation and add the word "alone" where it was not in the text, in order to back up his own teaching. Try reading Matthew 25 for Jesus's very clear teaching on the need for works.


Why don't you try trusting Christ's words, when He stated clearly and unequivocally that the forces of Hell would never overcome His Church?

You constantly ask that 'which church' question, knowing full well what the answer is. To claim that Christ's true Church stayed hidden for centuries, then suddenly jumped out during the Reformation (or even later, for most Evangelical denominations), is both unrealistic and against Scripture. The Catholic Church stayed true to the teachings of Christ, because He would not allow it to stray. He promised He would not. Do you or do you not trust God to keep his promises?

To say that the Catholic Church was overcome by false teachers is to say that Christ lied.

 

[cobweb]

"Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" Hence anyone who received Jesus is part of Jesus' body, is part of the church, and is a church himself. to set any regulations other then the above stated is heresy, if not to boast one's eminent domain, there is no other benefit.

Church is a spiritual body, not the literal church on earth. As God is spirit, hence the body is also spirit. But the church on earth are many and has many transformation. Not just one group to the next, but thru time when truth is revealed, those who received it can be considered church too. hence the Jewish church with law can be considered one, and Abraham can also be considered one. Each succession by the next, because each failed in the end and was diluted with false. Hence Jesus came again to set up church by revealing truth. And later the truth is confused with false in 1600, and later a new church again is revealed by protestants and many other movements.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Why should his Bride change with every new theological fad?

 

[buzzini]

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Why should his Bride change with every new theological fad?

as i said, the spiritual body of church is the same, and still grows as more and more people joining in, as one pass into the other world. but the one on earth are known as local churches, from region to region, from denomination to denomination, but spiritually speaking, they are all one. but to distinguish regionally, even Bible in Revelation called regionally those 7 churches, right?

But church on earth died and revived, just like anything else on earth. some called each revelation "dispensation", but one can also view it as "church" too.

 

[Fixation On God]

Sure you can. You make a claim that the Roman Catholic Church is the One Holy Apostolic Chuch. I simply say we disagree quite strongly on that point.

Of the 5 original patriarchates, one could possibly make the claim the the Oriental Orthodox are from the Church of Alexandria. I doubt anyone would deny that the Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, and Constantinople are still in communion with each other. Of the five, four are not in communion with Rome.

You can't walk out of a room full of people and then complain that everyone left you.

we could be disagreeing here forever.. I know how EO's feel about Catholics. I used to be EO (well, part-time anyway.) I won't complain when you or anyone else stops conversing with me.

The Bible backs up the Catholic teachings preached to all nations from the 1st century to the present.
if you can show me, Scripturally, where the Bible is to be taken as the sole authority, I'll leave the Catholic Church.

So Show me clear, unambiguous Scripture that states that Scripture contains ALL of God's teachings, and you've got yourself a convert.

Prove to me, without any possible misinterpretation, that the Bible claims to be the sole authority necessary for the Church, and I'll drop that Catholicism for good.

Otherwise, quit asking us to prove stuff solely from Scripture.

 

[RND]

Clearly, there are quite a few people here who disagree that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ. That's fine; if we all agreed, this board would serve no purpose other than to have 'me too' posts all day long, and that would be boring.

Now, clearly Christ founded ONE Church, one holy, catholic (meaning universal) and apostolic church. There were, over time, several bishoprics established, but they were all part of the same Church. On this, I believe, we can agree. If not, then frankly, you shouldn't be in this part of the boards, because that's in the Nicene Creed.

So...Christ founded one single Church. I'd like to have someone explain to me exactly how and when that Church went into apostasy. I've had Acts 20:29-30 quoted at me several times (three times in one post alone), which states that "of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them" as an explanation why the Catholic Church teachings aren't accepted by certain people (you know who you are). So when did the Church fail to heed in Christ's commands? When did it commit Apostasy?

And prove it scripturally.

I think the better question to ask would be, when "hasn't" the church committed apostasy?

Since the beginning, when Israel entered into the promised land and disobeyed God's instruction regarding what to do regarding the Canaanites, false teaching and false gods have entered into the theology and understanding of God's called out people.

God consistently called this for what it was: adultery. Spiritual adultery.

Hsa 4:13 They sacrifice upon the tops of the mountains, and burn incense upon the hills, under oaks and poplars and elms, because the shadow thereof [is] good: therefore your daughters shall commit whoredom, and your spouses shall commit adultery. Hsa 4:14 I will not punish your daughters when they commit whoredom, nor your spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves are separated with harlots, and they sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people [that] doth not understand shall fall.

The law and the prophets are replete with language that calls the backsliding of Israel (Israel and Judah) harlots and adulterers.

Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

Jer 5:7 How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by [them that are] no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses.

Eze 23:37 That they have committed adultery, and blood [is] in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through [the fire], to devour [them].

They would seek the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob whenever they were in trouble and when the danger(s) past they would be back worshiping the false idols of wood and stone, gold and silver just as their father's did.

Hab 2:18 ¶ What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?
Hab 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it [is] laid over with gold and silver, and [there is] no breath at all in the midst of it.

When examining any apostasy regarding the "modern" church we too must look back to these examples for what they are that described the actions of the children of Israel and how those actions related to the church today.

The church today has accepted all sorts of beliefs not taught in the wrod of God in favor of the many teachings of various "non-Christian" religions. Immortality of the soul, the state of the dead, the non-Biblical Sunday sacredness as opposed to God Holy and Sanctified seventh-day sabbath are just a few things which can be counted as apostasy in the "church" today.

If if want to see what's to come we should be prepared to look backward first.

 

[Fixation On God]

"A city on a mountain cannot be hidden." The Church is visible, not invisible.