when did it start & when did it change

[GBTWC]

does anyone know what are the earliest extra-biblical writings or documentations of veneration of or praying too Mary

and can anyone tell me when this started to change in the protestant church and why

 

[Thekla]

Hi, GBTWC

this isn't the answer to your question, but I thought the information interesting and that it might shed some light on the matter. A footnote for the burial of Rachel (Genesis) in my Jewish translation of the Masoretic OT (the Tanach) mentions that Jews visit her tomb in Bethlehem to ask for her intercession. There is Midrash that these intercessions to Rachel started with Joseph, her son, when he was sold into slavery.

 

[GBTWC]

please dont tell me that there is all this time arguing about this subject on this board and nobody knows the answers to these questions ??

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

please dont tell me that there is all this time arguing about this subject on this board and nobody knows the answers to these questions ??

Ummm blame the RCs, they are the First Church that started it

 

[Anglian]

Dear GBTWC

The Protoevangelion of St. James, a second century work very popular in the East for centuries is the first work with which I am familiar which tells us about the life of the blessed Theotokos.

Of course, it was never canonical, and is not by St. James, but it was read for many years as a work of pious inspiration. It shows that the veneration of the Blessed Virgin was part of the worship life of the early Church from at least the second century.

It was that Christian Church which started it - following, of course, the injunction of the Angel to call her 'blessed'; so in that sense, God started it -as He did this whole marvellous faith we share.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Philothei]

The earliest document is found in the Liturgy of St. James where the Theotokos is called EV during the worship... That would place it in the first century AD. Also the Protoevangelion mentions it...

see here :
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theotokos

just for starters... Also this :
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/evervirgin.aspx

http://www.ninesaintsethiopianorthod....org/id26.html
if this link go to my post at the "speak lovingly" and find post 2228 the link is there...

was very useful as it give a synopsis of the supportive material on the Ever virginity.

The starting of 'doubting" that teaching came as a "heresy" as early as the 5th century and the Fathers had to write apologetics to defend Theotokos Ever Virginity...Augustine, both eastern and westen Fathers aided to confirm and support her EV.....It eventually ended after Calvin and Luther as they also believed in her Ever virginity.... It was part of the new "relativism" that exists in our world today where everything and all things are measured up to man's standards and 'proof; of the Holy is put under the microscope...me thinks...the fact that the "great reformers" did not speak any ill about her Ever virginity is a proof that that "dogma" was still important and her Ever virginity was important to them and our Church.... in worshiping Christ and be a member of His Church.... Then again that is me....as an EO.

 

[Philothei]

Ummm blame the RCs, they are the First Church that started it

Correction ... RC started in the East? The church was one and EO and RC was one church... And secondly the Ever virginity first came about during worship after Theotokos death... The liturgy of St. james being the earliest document...The Apostolic tradition was in tune with EV as it was the one that produced the Bible... so why would there be any doubt that "they" started it??? did you mean that the Aposstles were RC?? No they were just church plain and simple....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Correction ... RC started in the East? The church was one and EO and RC was one church... And secondly the Ever virginity first came about during worship after Theotokos death... The liturgy of St. james being the earliest document...The Apostolic tradition was in tune with EV as it was the one that produced the Bible... so why would there be any doubt that "they" started it??? did you mean that the Aposstles were RC?? No they were just church plain and simple....

Greetings. I do not see the death or assumption of mary in Bible. If the Bible is silent on something, then I am silent on it. Thoughts?

Zechariah 2:13 Be-Hushed! All of flesh from faces of YHWH, that He is roused from habitation of holiness of Him

Reve 8:1 And when it opens the Seal, the Seventh, became a Hush/sigh <4602> in the Heaven as half-hour

 

[fated]

Looks like the OO/EO peeps took care of this one quite well.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Looks like the OO/EO peeps took care of this one quite well.

Yeah, they got your back bro

 

[Uphill Battle]

Dear GBTWC

The Protoevangelion of St. James, a second century work very popular in the East for centuries is the first work with which I am familiar which tells us about the life of the blessed Theotokos.

Of course, it was never canonical, and is not by St. James, but it was read for many years as a work of pious inspiration. It shows that the veneration of the Blessed Virgin was part of the worship life of the early Church from at least the second century.

It was that Christian Church which started it - following, of course, the injunction of the Angel to call her 'blessed'; so in that sense, God started it -as He did this whole marvellous faith we share.

peace,

Anglian

so... you acknowledge that it was likely written by a liar... but don't mind the content.

interesting!

Yeah, they got your back bro

right up until the work Filoque comes up.

 

[lionroar0]

so... you acknowledge that it was likely written by a liar... but don't mind the content.

interesting!

right up until the work Filoque comes up.

The same thing could be said about some of the Gospels, books and epistles that comprise the NT.

Peace

 

[GBTWC]

so as far as we know it was after Luther then also after Calvin the 1500's so does anyone know of a particular person or article that might have been a early move against the veneration or praying to of Mary?

 

[fated]

so as far as we know it was after Luther then also after Calvin the 1500's so does anyone know of a particular person or article that might have been a early move against the veneration or praying to of Mary?

We could go about discussing why you believe in the Trinity.

 

[fated]

so as far as we know it was after Luther then also after Calvin the 1500's so does anyone know of a particular person or article that might have been a early move against the veneration or praying to of Mary?

Your question is a subject of serious research. If you are interested in writing a comprehensive thesis for or against the OO/EO/Roman Catholic Church you could start here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

 

[Uphill Battle]

The same thing could be said about some of the Gospels, books and epistles that comprise the NT.

Peace

really. do tell which.

 

[GBTWC]

Your question is a subject of serious research. If you are interested in writing a comprehensive thesis for or against the OO/EO/Roman Catholic Church you could start here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

what are you talking about?

 

[GBTWC]

We could go about discussing why you believe in the Trinity.

youll have to start another thread thats not why I started this thread

 

[lionroar0]

so as far as we know it was after Luther then also after Calvin the 1500's so does anyone know of a particular person or article that might have been a early move against the veneration or praying to of Mary?

I don't know a specific article or person but I can give you a ball park range of about somewhere with in the 1800's.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

really. do tell which.

Let me see. The Gospel of St Matthew, The book of Revelations attributed to the Apostle St. John. The Gospel of Mark.

The Letter to the Romans. That's off the top of my head.

My question to you is. Since these documents were not signed by the people they are attributted to. How do you know these were not likely written by liars.

I'm asking for objective proof.

Peace