when did God become unknown?

[love&forgiveness]

(Rom 1:21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
is it possible to not know God ,what i mean is have people an excuse to not believe in God for they don't know Him ,for from the beginning they knew God and even those who worshipped Him not knew Him in some way for they witnessed His power.but did there come a time when some did not witness His power or did not know He existed ?i believe God only destroyed peolple of His own hand as with the flood and sodom and gormorah ,because they knew Him first ,and then chose not to worship Him.
any views on the topic would be greatfully appreciated.
God bless.
paul.

 

[Benedicta00]

It is possible to know that there is a God by natural reason and it is also possible to reject him, or to not respond to him through these natural means. Will they have an excuse? Only God can say, only he can know a man's heart.

 

[love&forgiveness]

do you think most today who are not Chrstians ,do not know God ,so it's our job to inform them ,and show them of His love?
do you think there is a specific time that God did become unknown?
do you think there are some today who can't be forgiven as maybe they've known God and His power and turned away from Him?

 

[Philip]

God knew the limitation of mankind, you see; and though the grace of being made in His Image was sucient to give them knowledge of the Word and through Him of the Father, as a safeguard against their neglect of this grace, He provided the works of creation also as means by which the Maker might be known. Nor was this all. Man's neglect of the indwelling grace tends ever to increase; and against this further frailty also God made provision by giving them a law, and by sending prophets, men whom they knew. Thus, if they were tardy in looking up to heaven, they might still gain knowledge of their Maker from those close at hand; for men can learn directly about higher things from other men. Three ways thus lay open to them, by which they might obtain the knowledge of God. They could look up into the immensity of heaven, and by pondering the harmony of creation come to know its Ruler, the Word of the Father, Whose all-ruling providence makes known the Father to all. Or, if this was beyond them, they could converse with holy men, and through them learn to know God, the Articer of all things, the Father of Christ, and to recognize the worship of idols as the negation of the truth and full of all impiety. Or else, in the third place, they could cease from lukewarmness and lead a good life merely by knowing the law. For the law was not given only for the Jews, nor was it solely for their sake that God sent the prophets, though it was to the Jews that they were sent and by the Jews that they were persecuted. The law and the prophets were a sacred school of the knowledge of God and the conduct of the spiritual life for the whole world.​

from On the Incarnation by St Athanasius the Apostolic

 

[Rafael]

Read on a little further in Romans to find your answer:

Romans 1:28 And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;
29 having been filled with all unrighteousness, whoredom, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil dispositions; whisperers,
30 evil-speakers, God-haters, insulting, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 unintelligent, faithless, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful;
32 who the righteous judgment of God having known—that those practising such things are worthy of death—not only do them, but also have delight with those practising them.

They traded the truth for a lie:

Romans 1:24 Wherefore also God did give them up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies among themselves;
25 who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.

 

[love&forgiveness]

yes, i understand God gave them up ,and i think this is the reason he killed of His own hand in the beginning ,but does this mean they could not be forgiven for they knew God and then went against Him ,what about today are there some who do not know Him.do you agree or disagree with this.
God bless.
paul

 

[Benedicta00]

No one comes to the father but by Jesus Christ this is what we know. Jesus did atone for the sins of mankind, not just for specific individuals but all of humanity and if anyone is forgiven and in heaven it is by the blood of Christ.

We can not judge any man whether he be Christian or non Christian, we can only follow the revealed light that we have been given by God, to follow him the best way the Spirit enables us to do. Only God knows if we have or have not responded to him when he called and God calls all of us in his own way according to his will.

God reveals himself to mankind through natural mean and also through supernatural revelation. When God created man in his image and likeness he created man with understanding, free will, and a spirit that is WILL live forever, it is where it will end up living forever that we need to concern ourselves with.

Man can know because God gave him understanding by his natural reasoning that there is a Supreme Being and that he created him but for man to believe that the Supreme Being came to take on our humanity and become one of us out of love of us and that he loved us to the point he died for us, takes super natural understanding and we call that faith and we can not gain this from our own natural reasoning, we can only receive this by responding to the grace that God gives all of us.

God grants to all men his prevenient (initial) grace, which makes our souls capable of accepting the grace of justification- in what ever form God offers justification- only he knows- we can not possibly, we can not limit God’s abilities on how he can and will save us through Christ.

We do know it is his desire for all to come to knowledge of him and be saved, so we are called to “preach the gospel at all time, use words when necessary.” (St. Francis of Assisi) we do have a duty to reveal the light that we have been given to those and they can respond to the grace of God that he gives to them or reject it but only he can judge, not us but since he created us with free will, we can either accept or reject his promptings, we will not have an excuse, if we are ****** it is because we chose to be.

 

[love&forgiveness]

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
what does this mean.

 

[Benedicta00]

It means one who has apostatized the faith will not be able to claim ignorance. He knows who it is he denies.

"To whom much has been given, much is expected."

 

[love&forgiveness]

i think i understand now, tell me if this is right.
Gods love has always been there in some form , but man has chosen to ignore it,man would rather sin than please God and accept His love.
God sent Christ to show His love for us and offer us a way to not be ruled by sin and beable to resist it's clutches.by us repenting we recieve His love and forgiveness , and we also are to show others love and forgiveness to be proof of His love so they also maybe filled with His love.
God bless.
paul

 

[love&forgiveness]

(Rom 5:14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come
was Able without sin?
(Gen 6:9) These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
what about Noah?
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
what about Job?
Do we inherit part of our parents sin?
is it impossible not to be tainted by sin to a certain extent,for sin was in the world after Adams transgression,the whole of creation was tainted by his sin.
Can we be perfect through Christ?
I know there is none perfect without Christ,but can we be perfect with Him?
in a world that we live in today so tainted with sin,is it possible not to sin at all if we have the love of Christ?
do you think there will become a time when this world will be pure evil like in the times of Noah and with sodom and gommorah?
anyway,thanks for your help and replies.
God bless.
paul

 

[Benedicta00]

i think i understand now, tell me if this is right.
Gods love has always been there in some form , but man has chosen to ignore it,man would rather sin than please God and accept His love.
God sent Christ to show His love for us and offer us a way to not be ruled by sin and beable to resist it's clutches.by us repenting we recieve His love and forgiveness , and we also are to show others love and forgiveness to be proof of His love so they also maybe filled with His love.
God bless.
paul

Basically.


To make it short, man always had God’s presence with him and he could always come to believe a god existed because of his presence with him but with out the grace of divine revelation he can not know who he is.

God gave revelation to the Jews but they rejected him so this tells us that we can know by divine revelation who he is but we can still reject that truth.

“He came to his own and his own accepted him not.” The Jews who were chose to receive the messiah rejected him so "the stone which the builder rejected became the corner stone", that means the Jews who were chosen to reveal Jesus to the world and show that they are a holy nation, who was chosen to teach the world about God’s love and salvation, no longer is.

We, the Church, the body of believers (we are called that because the Jews, his own do not believe) are called to make disciples of all nations by the truth, by our love. We now hold the message of salvation and we speard that by loving God in our neighbor.

God gives all of us grace, the grace he gives may not all be the same however, but we know the grace his gives is sufficient to know him whether it be by the natural law he writes in all our hearts or by him revealing his son to us, but man is free to reject or accept that is why no one will stand before God with an excuse.

 

[Benedicta00]

(Rom 5:14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come
was Able without sin?
(Gen 6:9) These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
what about Noah?
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
what about Job?
Do we inherit part of our parents sin?
is it impossible not to be tainted by sin to a certain extent,for sin was in the world after Adams transgression,the whole of creation was tainted by his sin.
Can we be perfect through Christ?
I know there is none perfect without Christ,but can we be perfect with Him?
in a world that we live in today so tainted with sin,is it possible not to sin at all if we have the love of Christ?
do you think there will become a time when this world will be pure evil like in the times of Noah and with sodom and gommorah?
anyway,thanks for your help and replies.
God bless.
paul

The teaching is called original sin and yes we all are born with it, cut off from God. Being born again in Christ Jesus removes this sin. As a Catholic I believe that is baptism.

Those who committed no evil and who God found just, when they died they did not go to hell, they went to the place of the dead where they awaited Christ to come and free them from Adam’s sin.

We do not know exactly what this place of the dead is, it is not defined, we only know that there is such a state or place for those who were just. The scripture of the Lazarus being comforted in the bosom of Abraham points to this.

As far as us being sin free…

We are free from bondage when we are born again, deliverd from being bullets to hell, but we still have the fallen nature so that means we will always be inclined to fall and we are not perfect, we have faults. We can over come them and our inclinations to sin by relying on grace and mercy but as long as we are in the mortal flesh we will always have a sinful nature. Thank God for Christ.

 

[love&forgiveness]

o.k. thanks for you're help if i have anymore questions on the subjest i'll let you know.
God bless.
paul

 

[sunflower79]

I think that since Adam and Eve sinned NO man is perfect with or without Christ. The only one perfect is Jesus Christ. We will continue to sin. Jesus died for our sins past present and future. When we are saved(believing Jesus died on the cross to provide a way for us) we then have an open line of communication with Jesus Christ and when he looks at us He sees His blood and not our sin because He is so Holy that he can not look at sin.

 

[Kim Varner]

Sunflower said,

"I think that since Adam and Eve sinned NO man is perfect with or without Christ. The only one perfect is Jesus Christ. We will continue to sin."

I guess God doesn't do what the word says he does:

"And the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from ALL sin"
1John 1:7

It CLEANSES us from ALL sin! It doesn't merely cover up our sin!

"You shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people in their sin."
Matthew 1:21

oops! a little typo there. The verse says he shall save His people FROM their sin!


Try reading all of Romans 6. I don't see any verse in that chapter that implies in any way that we will continue to sin.

What God does not intend to deliver us from is the RESULT of our sin, here and now, in this life. When an alcoholic finally breaks free of his addiction, does God save him from the ravaging affects of alcohol on his body? No. Will God rescue a criminal from going to prison simply because the criminal called on His name to be saved? No. But God will save him from committing the same crime that got him there in the first place.

If a disease is curable, would a doctor just give the patient pain-killers and shrug his shoulders and say he won't do anything about the disease?

Does someone with ragged, ripped, torn stained clothes, when offered clean new clothes, keep the old clothes on and put the new clothes on over the old? Or do they take the old clothes off, wash themselves in water and put the new clothes on?

Nothing is impossible with God, and He can and will save us from our sin. If you actually think He doesn't intend to save us from our sin, but just covers it up with the blood of Christ, (kind of like covering a stain with some dye of the same color as the clothing. Is the clothing really washed clean?) then it certainly is right for many unbelievers to brand Christians as hypocrites, because it is the God of Christianity who makes them so.

You might as well call yourself and all Christians bloodsoaked sepulchres, covered in the blood of Christ, but on the inside, full of dead men's bones. Is God simply fooling Himself into thinking that we are righteous when we really aren't? Christ called the Pharisees whitewashed sepulchres with the intention of rebuking them. I sure don't wish to live the life with a title of the rebuke of Christ.

The only way in which Christ is the only perfect one is that He was sinless from the cradle to the grave. None of us can claim that. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 " Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

The mortal flesh is not more powerful than the grace of God. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Phil 4:13 Christ came to prove this very truth, that the power and grace of God enables us in our mortal flesh to obey God. He said, "I can of mine own self do nothing." He did not overcome sin in His own power, but in the power of His Father. His righteousness was not His own, but that of the Father. This is why He said to the rich ruler, that no one is good except God the Father. Because His own goodness did not come from within Himself, as opposed to the rich young ruler, who claimed that his own goodness came from within himself.

Peter says that we are "partakers of the divine nature" 2 Peter 1:4, so please don't tell me that Christ could overcome sin the flesh because He was divine. Just as Christ depended on the divine power of the Father to overcome sin, so we are to depend on the same power given to us by Christ. Again, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

I cannot boast of any righteousness that comes from my own will, for I have none. But I can boast of the grace of God which enables me to be righteous.Therefore God's strength is made perfect in my weakness. His strength is shown through the change of character in me. Granted, it did not come overnight. Just as physical growth is a process, so is spiritual growth. Why would God want us to only turn away from pre-marital sex, homosexuality, theft and murder, but then keep us stuck in hatred, bitterness, pride, unforgiveness, covetousness and lust?

"But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." Romans 6:17-18

 

[pmarquette]

Know and not know
raphe
Senior Member
I believe Paul is speaking of Carnal Christian's [ sinning saints ]
those who look good , smell good, but are like the Pharisees and Saducees .... empty within