I explained this is post 35, but to reiterate...He was seen as himself (God Almighty) and was recognized as such. That is what the wording is saying.No, it means, He appeared "as God" (Almighty) ("as" the number one and absolute Highest Himself literally) to them, but whose true identity (name) (or who and what He really was) was unknown (to them) and still remained to be seen (at that time, etc)... (and was only able to be revealed at a later time) (only in and with Christ, etc)…
“Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."”
Matthew 17:1-4 NASB
“Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him. And as these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah"-not realizing what he was saying. While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!" And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen.”
Luke 9:28-36 NASB
“Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them. Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah." For he did not know what to answer; for they became terrified. Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!" All at once they looked around and saw no one with them anymore, except Jesus alone. As they were coming down from the mountain, He gave them orders not to relate to anyone what they had seen, until the Son of Man rose from the dead.”
Mark 9:2-9 NASB
I don’t see any mention of them going to heaven to talk and angels have been coming down from heaven giving messages since creation.
I didn't say they did .... Jesus was talking with Moses & Elijah .... nobody else.
Matthew 17
3Suddenly Moses and Elijah appeared before them, talking with Jesus.
Angelic beings are a different kind of created being ... they have no "man" in them. Bible says one day we will be "like" the angels ... but we will have to be changed, and that don't happen until the 1st resurrection at our Lords return. And yes, God created angelic beings with the capability to go back and forth from heaven to earth.
Jesus is both the divine and man .... He can be in heaven or on earth. Man is either IN heaven (changed) or on the earth (not changed) and can't go back and forth between the two.
So is the only one (being both man and God) is Jesus who can ascend or descend from heaven .... no human can do this.
Jesus... several times ... when He performed miracles ask that people not talk about them .... because He didn't want their faith in Him to be based on miracles alone.
A number of times in the book of Genesis alone. He visited Abraham, wrestled with Jacob, and even talked to Moses face to face.“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”
John 3:13 NASB When did this take place?
A number of times in the book of Genesis alone. He visited Abraham, wrestled with Jacob, and even talked to Moses face to face.
Then of course there's the 4th man in the fire with the 3 amigos in Babylon - witnessed by Nebuchadnezzar. Not to mention several other instances such as in the book of Judges.
And - let's not forget the Garden of Eden where He walked on occasion.
Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the first to be resurrected from the dead in the flesh and ascended to the right hand of the Father. Before that He appeared several times. One major appearance was in the form of Melchizedek. He is "I AM".“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”
John 3:13 NASB
When did this take place?
Ok I’m sorry I misunderstood you. I think I get what your saying now. Moses and Elijah did not descend from heaven they appeared in spirit. Is that correct?
Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the first to be resurrected from the dead in the flesh and ascended to the right hand of the Father. Before that He appeared several times. One major appearance was in the form of Melchizedek. He is "I AM".
They appeared in their spiritual bodies .... we will have spiritual bodies some day.
Luke 24:39 - Jesus speaking when He appeared to the apostles at pentecost after His death and resurrection.
English Standard Version
See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.
Something I have thought about as a concept/notion (not at all biblically stated anywhere - just a notion) about ... was what they saw that day representative of what our spiritual bodies will look like?
1 John 3:2
New Living Translation
Dear friends, we are already God’s children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is. (my concept/notion - could this be what the apostles saw Jesus being in heaven along with the others seen there? ie as they really are in heaven?)
Yes I believe you are correct friend. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Thanks for sharing, have a blessed evening.
“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”
John 3:13 NASB
When did this take place?
Where does it say He had been here, much less ascended, before His birth from Mary?That explains that He descended but not that He has already ascended previously. The indication I see here is that He had descended and ascended back to heaven before His incarnation.
At first it seems like that , but then it does not explain other things .It is talking about He coming from Heaven when He was conceived.
He did descend before His ascension, at His birth.But He says no one has ascended except the one who has descended. This means that He has ascended before His incarnation which happened before His resurrection. I don’t think it is inconceivable that Jesus had not descended before His incarnation.
It seems to me that this passage is more likely a reference to post resurrection events.“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”
John 3:13 NASB
When did this take place?
“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”
John 3:13 NASB
When did this take place?
There are NT manuscripts that translate into, "Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." Jude 1:5 NLV,ESV,NET etc.I’m just curious if the scriptures give an actual reference to Him descending before His incarnation? I think this statement implies that Jesus descended and ascended before His incarnation.
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13).
There is a lot of truth we can unpack from this one verse.
First, when Jesus says, no man has ascended to Heaven, He really meant that. No man has ever gone to heaven before (except Jesus). But what about Elijah? Well, many believe Elijah went to Heaven (or God's kingdom where God sits on His throne with His angels in worship of Him, etc.), but this is not the case. Most do not realize that there are three heavens. Click on the following spoiler button below to learn more.
The Three Heavens:
The Scripture mentions three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2), not just one!
The First Heaven:
The first heaven is earth's atmosphere where birds fly (Genesis 1:20, Jeremiah 4:25;34:20,Lamentations 4:19, Zephaniah 1:3). One of the Hebrew words for 'heaven' is shamayim. This same word is translated as 'sky' in the Scripture, as can be seen by comparing Genesis 7:3, "fowls also of the air," with Genesis 7:23, "fowl of the heaven." The word 'sky' and 'heaven' are used interchangeably from the same Hebrew word (Psalm 8:8). So the first heaven is synonymous with 'heights' or 'elevations.'
Here are other examples to illustrate the first heaven. Exodus 19:20 says the Lord was on top of Mount Sinai when he called Moses up there, and God describes Mount Sinai as 'heaven' (Exodus 20:22, Deuteronomy 4:36). Here, everything above the ground is called 'heaven'.
Another example of the first heaven is in Amos 9:1-3, where God states that at the time of this judgment, nobody will be able to flee away (verse 1), even "though they climb up to heaven" (verse 2). This "heaven" is defined in the next verse, verse 3, as climbing to the top of Mount Carmel.
Another example is where the Scripture speaks of the "dew of heaven" (Genesis 27:28,39,Deuteronomy 33:28, Daniel 4:15-33; 5:21). The first heaven, from which dew comes, means the atmosphere, where the clouds and the wind roam. Therefore, everything above the ground is called 'heaven."
Another Hebrew word for the first heaven is 'shachaq.' This same word for heaven (Psalm 89:6,37) is also translated as 'sky' or 'skies' (Deuteronomy 33:26; Job 37:18; Psalm 18:11), and as 'clouds' (Job 35:5; 36:28; Psalm 36:5; 68:34, Pro. 3:20; 8:28).
The Second Heaven:
The second heaven is outer space where the planets and stars exist (Genesis 1:14-17; 15:5;22:17;26:4, Deuteronomy 1:10; 17:3; Psalm 8:3, Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29). Usually the term "host of heaven" or "firmament of the heaven" is used to describe this second heaven.
The Third Heaven:
The third heaven is literally called "the third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12:2. This third heaven is what Christ calls his "Father's house" (John 14:2), and both Christ and the Apostle Paul calls it "paradise" (Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Revelation 2:7). This is where God and the heavenly sanctuary exist (1 Peter 3:22). This third heaven is also known as the "heaven of heavens" (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27, 2 Chronicles 2:6; 6:18, Nehemiah 9:6, Psalms 148:4), "The heavenly Jerusalem" (Galatians 4: 26; Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 3:12), the "kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 25:1, James 2:5), the "eternal kingdom" (2 Peter 1:11), the "eternal inheritance" (1 Peter. 1:4,Hebrews 9:15), and the "better country" (Hebrews 11:14,16). The fact that there are more than one 'heaven' can be shown by Psalm 115:16, "The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S." There are obviously two different 'heavens' being addressed in this one verse.
Source:
Elijah, Enoch, and Moses
Important Note: Although I quoted part of this article to help explain the three heavens, I do not agree with their interpretation of on Enoch. I believe Enoch was translated or spiritually taken by God and did not see death (as the Scriptures say). So not all the views expressed at this website reflect my views on the Scriptures.
If we are to believe John 3:13 literally, this means that Elijah could not have gone to the third Heaven or God's kingdom. Since Elijah could not have gone to the heaven of God's throne, then to which heaven did he go? He was not taken to God's heavenly throne (as some imagine). He was actually taken into the earth's atmosphere, the first heaven. There could be no whirlwind in any other place but in the atmosphere surrounding this earth.
Elijah was taken up into the sky and transported to another location upon the Earth via by traveling through the air (kind of like our flight travel, but he was in God's chariot). This event sort of happened again (But in a slightly different way) in the New Testament with Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch. There was a chariot in the story. The Ethiopian eunuch was riding in a chariot, before meeting Philip, and after the Ethiopian eunuch accepted the gospel, and was baptized, Philip was then transported by the Spirit to another location.
Second, to answer your question: One possibility is that Christ could be referring to Himself ascending to Heaven in His previous form (not as a man) before the Incarnation. For I believe that Christ made many pre-incarnate appearances in the Old Testament (see this thread here for a list of occurences He has made) which could potentially explain what Jesus meant in John 3:13. Jesus (the Living Word or 2nd person of the Godhead) did not reside in the body of man before the Incarnation. I believe His pre-incarnate appearances were in a different form or body (Again, see this same thread here for the explanation). Jesus could be claiming that He is the only man currently in existence (Who in a previous form had ascended to Heaven).
Three, another possibility (so as to answer your question) is that Jesus is speaking prophetically of His future ascension in John 3:13. Jesus appears to imply a past event that only He has done in John 3:13. But can this be interpreted as referring to a future event? Yes, I believe it is possible. John the baptist said a similar thing involving Jesus; For John the baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29). If all we had was John 1:29 in our Bible and a few other passages, and we did not know about Jesus dying upon the cross, we could wrongfully conclude that John 1:29 is referring to something that Jesus did in the past. John speaks in the present tense and implies something Jesus did already by saying, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." Yet, we know that Jesus as our Passover Lamb was not slain yet and he did not take away the sin of the world yet until He died upon the cross. John spoke in the present tense, but some may think that he was referring to what Jesus did in the past (when this is not the case). So it is possible Jesus is speaking prophetically or He is speaking in reference to the age of time before He takes His people up into Heaven one day (Note: I believe those saints who go to Heaven in the Rapture, it will be only a temporary residence, and they will eventually move to the New Earth after Millennium to live with God forever).
Four, I believe the last part of John 3:13 that says: "even the Son of man which is in heaven" is a Trinity statement. I believe this is referring to how Jesus and the Father are one or connected as one GOD. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." "That Father is in me, and I am in the Father." So the Son of man is in Heaven at the very moment he was speaking to Nicodemus because He abides in the Father in Heaven, just as the Father abides in Him (upon the Earth). Again, i want to stress that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are distinct persons, but they all exist in harmony as one God.
Anyways, I hope that what I said helps, and may God bless you today.
Source used for one paragraph, and for the info within the spoiler button:
ECC Ecclesiastic Commonwealth Community
(Note: Again, I do not believe everything this website may teach; I am merely in agreement with what I stated in this post).
Where does it say He had been here, much less ascended, before His birth from Mary?
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