When and Where did the first day begin?

[Diamond72]

This is New Year, so we go by time zones which were pretty much set up at random. The Bible goes by sunrise and sunset. The atmosphere bends the light rays, so we already have 10 minutes to deal with there. When did the first day begin, and where did it begin? Then you have the North Pole and the South Pole. On two days of the year, sunrise and sunset take place at the same time.

I did the math, and I may not be right. But for 30 miles, we have a six-month day. If you travel 30 miles from the North Pole, then you have at least one second of sunrise or sunset, so you have a day. By the time you get to Anchorage, you have 6 hours of day or 6 hours of night on one day of the year.

So did day one begin in the north or the south? Just when or where did this first day begin? Also, there was no sun until the fourth day. So how do you have days of sunrise and sunset when there is no sun?

"Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light." (Genesis 1:2-3)

The first day began when there was light on the "surface of the deep." "The deep" refers to the primordial ocean or chaotic waters that covered the earth before creation began. So, we did not actually have any land yet. We did not actually have dry land until day three.

We see that "God called the light 'day,' and the darkness he called 'night.'" So you cannot have day without light. Yet there was no sun until the fourth day. Then we read: "And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day." Day is light, but the first day begins at evening when there is no light. That does not make any sense.

At any moment in time, somewhere on Earth is a sunrise, and somewhere on Earth is a sunset. So, where on Earth did this first day begin? Bishop Ussher calculated that the first day of creation began at nightfall on October 23, 4004 B.C. This corresponds to the evening before the autumnal equinox.

The exact location on Earth where the equinox begins can vary slightly each year due to the tilt of the Earth's axis and its elliptical orbit around the sun. However, it generally occurs around the equator, where the sun is directly overhead at noon.

So, we do have a time, and we do have a place. The only problem is we do not have a sun. The Bible clearly says: God called the light "day," so how can you have day without light? They say there was no sun until the fourth day. But there is no light to begin the first day.

We do know when and where the first day began: at the equator on the equinox on October 23, 4004 B.C.

The Essence: The story in Genesis aims to convey that God is the originator of light and order, transforming chaos into a structured creation. The specifics of light before the sun and the concept of evening and morning serve to highlight the divine nature of creation rather than adhere to human understanding of time and space.

 

[Diamond72]

I did the math, and I may not be right. But for 30 miles, we have a six-month day.

I do have to correct this. The gradual transition between continuous daylight and continuous darkness near the poles indeed begins with the smallest measurable unit of time, effectively down to seconds or even less, according to physical laws. So day begins with the smallest distance and the smallest length of time that the laws of physics will allow.

In theory there is a place of six months of night and six months of day. But in reality that time and place does not exist. Someone needs to call myth busters because that myth has been busted.

Planck time is approximately 5.39 x 10^-44 seconds. So that would be the length of the first day. Planck length is approximately 1.616 x 10^-35 meters. A twinkle of an eye is the smallest unit of measure in the Bible. So the first day at the north pole and the first night at the south pole was little more than the twinkle of an eye.

1 Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

So there is no place on earth where we do not have day or night. Even if it is in the twinkle of an eye.

 

[Diamond72]

Calculating the exact position of the North Pole on a specific historical date, like October 23, 4004 B.C., would involve accounting for several astronomical factors, including the Earth's axial precession (wobble) and the gravitational influences of other planets. This is a complex task that requires advanced knowledge in celestial mechanics and historical astronomy.

Given these complexities, pinpointing the exact position of the North Pole on October 23, 4004 B.C., would require detailed simulations and historical data. While it's an intriguing question, it goes beyond simple calculations and would best be addressed by experts in the fields of astronomy and astrophysics using sophisticated software and models.

The computer can do the math but you still have to feed the data into the computer.

In Barrow, Alaska (around 71° north latitude), the sun does not set for about two months in the summer and does not rise for about two months in the winter. The North Pole is ice that moves.

 

[eleos1954]

This is New Year, so we go by time zones which were pretty much set up at random. The Bible goes by sunrise and sunset. The atmosphere bends the light rays, so we already have 10 minutes to deal with there. When did the first day begin, and where did it begin? Then you have the North Pole and the South Pole. On two days of the year, sunrise and sunset take place at the same time.

I did the math, and I may not be right. But for 30 miles, we have a six-month day. If you travel 30 miles from the North Pole, then you have at least one second of sunrise or sunset, so you have a day. By the time you get to Anchorage, you have 6 hours of day or 6 hours of night on one day of the year.

So did day one begin in the north or the south? Just when or where did this first day begin? Also, there was no sun until the fourth day. So how do you have days of sunrise and sunset when there is no sun?

"Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light." (Genesis 1:2-3)

The first day began when there was light on the "surface of the deep." "The deep" refers to the primordial ocean or chaotic waters that covered the earth before creation began. So, we did not actually have any land yet. We did not actually have dry land until day three.

We see that "God called the light 'day,' and the darkness he called 'night.'" So you cannot have day without light. Yet there was no sun until the fourth day. Then we read: "And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day." Day is light, but the first day begins at evening when there is no light. That does not make any sense.

At any moment in time, somewhere on Earth is a sunrise, and somewhere on Earth is a sunset. So, where on Earth did this first day begin? Bishop Ussher calculated that the first day of creation began at nightfall on October 23, 4004 B.C. This corresponds to the evening before the autumnal equinox.

The exact location on Earth where the equinox begins can vary slightly each year due to the tilt of the Earth's axis and its elliptical orbit around the sun. However, it generally occurs around the equator, where the sun is directly overhead at noon.

So, we do have a time, and we do have a place. The only problem is we do not have a sun. The Bible clearly says: God called the light "day," so how can you have day without light? They say there was no sun until the fourth day. But there is no light to begin the first day.

We do know when and where the first day began: at the equator on the equinox on October 23, 4004 B.C.

The Essence: The story in Genesis aims to convey that God is the originator of light and order, transforming chaos into a structured creation. The specifics of light before the sun and the concept of evening and morning serve to highlight the divine nature of creation rather than adhere to human understanding of time and space.

The bible provides human chronology from Adam & Eve onward ... when one uses that information that puts creation at being roughly 6,000 years ago ... it can't be before Adam and Eve because death did not enter the world until after Adam & Eve sinned.

We do know when and where the first day began: at the equator on the equinox on October 23, 4004 B.C.

This is interesting because using this date it equates to the earth being created 6,026 years ago

so how can you have day without light?

The glory of God provides light (example)

Revelation 21:23

22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp.

 

[davetaff]

The bible provides human chronology from Adam & Eve onward ... when one uses that information that puts creation at being roughly 6,000 years ago ... it can't be before Adam and Eve because death did not enter the world until after Adam & Eve sinned.


This is interesting because using this date it equates to the earth being created 6,026 years ago


The glory of God provides light (example)

Revelation 21:23

22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp.

Hi
The first day of this creation began when Noah stepped out of the ark an a new creation of man in the image of God began it would take 6 days 1000 years long we are somewhere towards the end of the 6th day awaiting the return of Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[eleos1954]

Hi
The first day of this creation began when Noah stepped out of the ark an a new creation of man in the image of God began it would take 6 days 1000 years long we are somewhere towards the end of the 6th day awaiting the return of Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave

well no ... the bible says the first creation of mankind (humans) were Adam and Eve and they were made in His image.

 

[Job 33:6]

This is New Year, so we go by time zones which were pretty much set up at random. The Bible goes by sunrise and sunset. The atmosphere bends the light rays, so we already have 10 minutes to deal with there. When did the first day begin, and where did it begin? Then you have the North Pole and the South Pole. On two days of the year, sunrise and sunset take place at the same time.

I did the math, and I may not be right. But for 30 miles, we have a six-month day. If you travel 30 miles from the North Pole, then you have at least one second of sunrise or sunset, so you have a day. By the time you get to Anchorage, you have 6 hours of day or 6 hours of night on one day of the year.

So did day one begin in the north or the south? Just when or where did this first day begin? Also, there was no sun until the fourth day. So how do you have days of sunrise and sunset when there is no sun?

"Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light." (Genesis 1:2-3)

The first day began when there was light on the "surface of the deep." "The deep" refers to the primordial ocean or chaotic waters that covered the earth before creation began. So, we did not actually have any land yet. We did not actually have dry land until day three.

We see that "God called the light 'day,' and the darkness he called 'night.'" So you cannot have day without light. Yet there was no sun until the fourth day. Then we read: "And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day." Day is light, but the first day begins at evening when there is no light. That does not make any sense.

At any moment in time, somewhere on Earth is a sunrise, and somewhere on Earth is a sunset. So, where on Earth did this first day begin? Bishop Ussher calculated that the first day of creation began at nightfall on October 23, 4004 B.C. This corresponds to the evening before the autumnal equinox.

The exact location on Earth where the equinox begins can vary slightly each year due to the tilt of the Earth's axis and its elliptical orbit around the sun. However, it generally occurs around the equator, where the sun is directly overhead at noon.

So, we do have a time, and we do have a place. The only problem is we do not have a sun. The Bible clearly says: God called the light "day," so how can you have day without light? They say there was no sun until the fourth day. But there is no light to begin the first day.

We do know when and where the first day began: at the equator on the equinox on October 23, 4004 B.C.

The Essence: The story in Genesis aims to convey that God is the originator of light and order, transforming chaos into a structured creation. The specifics of light before the sun and the concept of evening and morning serve to highlight the divine nature of creation rather than adhere to human understanding of time and space.

Day 1 began when God created light:
Genesis 1:1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Genesis 1:5 NRSV
[5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

And the sun was present before God created it. Just as the earth was formless before God created it on day 3.

Genesis 1:16-18 NRSV
[16] God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. [17] God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth, [18] to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

God made the sun and moon to do something, to rule the day and to rule the night. This creation is not ex nihilo, it's ex materia.

 

[David Lamb]

Day 1 began when God created light:
Genesis 1:1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Genesis 1:5 NRSV
[5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

And the sun was present before God created it. Just as the earth was formless before God created it on day 3.

How could the sun be present before God created it? Perhaps by "it" you meant light. But the bible says that God created light on Day 1 and the sun on Day 4.

Genesis 1:16-18 NRSV
[16] God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. [17] God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth, [18] to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

God made the sun and moon to do something, to rule the day and to rule the night. This creation is not ex nihilo, it's ex materia.

That doesn't make sense. The fact that Genesis provides the reason God made the sun, moon and stars doesn't mean that He created them ex materia.

 

[Job 33:6]

How could the sun be present before God created it? Perhaps by "it" you meant light. But the bible says that God created light on Day 1 and the sun on Day 4.

Because the creation being spoken of is not ex nihilo. Just like I can create a batch of cookies without making cookies appear out of thin air.

It says that the celestial bodies were made for something. Or made to do something. Kind of like mankind was made to glorify God. Made to do something is not the same as making something appear out of nothing.

Genesis 1:14-16 NRSVUE
[14] And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, [15] and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. [16] God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.

Let there be lights to separate. Let there be lights to rule etc.

Even moving things around from point A to point B in an ex materia fashion involves things that are already present.

That doesn't make sense. The fact that Genesis provides the reason God made the sun, moon and stars doesn't mean that He created them ex materia.

The statement of reason is the priority statement. If I said "I created these cookies for the Christmas party" then the statement really isn't about material origins. Rather it's a purpose statement or a statement of reason.

And we know that it's ex materia for a variety of reasons. One of which is to simply look at the text:
Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

God didn't create it as chaos. God didn't create it and then Satan destroyed it either. Rather, according to the Bible, it simply was formless when God began to create it.

And this is the same way chapter 2 starts as well. 2:4 to 2:7.

 

[Job 33:6]

@David Lamb

Brews coffee*,

You should understand that there are perhaps half a dozen other ancient near east texts very similar to Genesis, and they all say the same thing in slightly different ways. And they all begin with like a watery formless mass. And then deities come in and shape it and at the end they rest. And they all call it their temple at the end.

Not that the Bible is copying anyone. I'm just saying that this is a normal part of the ancient culture. And if you would like examples, I can share. And these other texts are centuries older than the dead sea scrolls.

 

[David Lamb]

Because the creation being spoken of is not ex nihilo. Just like I can create a batch of cookies without making cookies appear out of thin air.

It says that the celestial bodies were made for something. Or made to do something. Kind of like mankind was made to glorify God. Made to do something is not the same as making something appear out of nothing.

Being made to do something can apply to things made out of something else and to things created ex nihilo. The fact that the celestial bodies were created with a purpose says nothing about whether their creation was ex materia or ex nihilo.

Genesis 1:14-16 NRSVUE
[14] And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, [15] and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. [16] God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.

Let there be lights to separate. Let there be lights to rule etc.

Even moving things around from point A to point B in an ex materia fashion involves things that are already present.

"God made two great lights," not "God formed two great lights out of pre-existing materials." Are you saying that ex nihilo creation could apply only to things with no purpose?

The statement of reason is the priority statement. If I said "I created these cookies for the Christmas party" then the statement really isn't about material origins. Rather it's a purpose statement or a statement of reason.

Yes, the statement about the cookies is a statement of reason. Just like God saying that the reason for the sun and moon was to give light to the earth. But in neither case does the purpose tell us what the cookies or the sun and moon were made from.

 

[Job 33:6]

Being made to do something can apply to things made out of something else and to things created ex nihilo. The fact that the celestial bodies were created with a purpose says nothing about whether their creation was ex materia or ex nihilo.

Sure, it could, hypothetically.

"God made two great lights," not "God formed two great lights out of pre-existing materials." Are you saying that ex nihilo creation could apply only to things with no purpose?

No. I agree. I'm just saying that, this sentence isn't about material origins, rather it's about purpose. The reason is what's important (the Christmas party is more important than the cookies).

Yes, the statement about the cookies is a statement of reason. Just like God saying that the reason for the sun and moon was to give light to the earth. But in neither case does the purpose tell us what the cookies or the sun and moon were made from.

And, maybe you've responded quickly, but I have an example of why we know that it's ex materia, above. I'll just reshare:

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

And we know that it's ex materia for a variety of reasons. One of which is to simply look at the text:
Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

God didn't create it as chaos. God didn't create it and then Satan destroyed it either. Rather, according to the Bible, it simply was formless when God began to create it.

And this is the same way chapter 2 starts as well. 2:4 to 2:7.

 

[Job 33:6]

"God made two great lights," not "God formed two great lights out of pre-existing materials."

The Hebrew word bara, means "to make" or "to do".

That's just what it is. Saying "God made the lights" could very easily be understood in the sense of someone making cookies. It needs not require ex nihilo creation. And there are evidences for this understanding as an ex materia creation. Such as the one noted above.

People have asked this question for centuries. How could there be light before the sun?

But when you wake up each morning and you look out the window, shortly before the sun has risen, what do you see? You see light before the sun.

It is truly that simple. This isn't about the big bang. It's an ancient near east creation text.
@David Lamb

I have my coffee. It's morning. I'm looking out my window right now, and I see light, but there is no sun (I can't see the sun yet).

 

[Job 33:6]

@David Lamb

In other ancient near east creation texts, there are also 3 areas of interest.

1. Time/seasons.
2. Weather and
3. Tries to remember... Ah yes, food.

And what do we see in the first 3 days of Genesis?

"Another example can be seen in the older Sumerian debate text Debate Between Winter and Summer, in which Enlil establishes day and night (time), fertility of the ground to make crops proliferate (food), and the sluices of heaven (the mechanism for weather). It is no surprise that these interests permeate ancient cosmologies because they are the principal issues that frame existence, regardless of where or in what time one lives."
-Reading Genesis 1 and 2, an Evangelical Conversation, John Walton.

It's not about the big bang. It's about reason and purpose and value and meaning. It's about what the sun and moon and stars do, not so much about material origins or things popping into existence. Seasons, crops, food, weather.

What's the most important thing about the sun? Well, it keeps us from freezing to death. God made the sun for reasons and for purposes. For reasons that are far more important than the question of material origins.

 

[davetaff]

Hi
The sun moon and stars God created on day 4 are symbolic the sun is Jesus Christ the light of the world the moon is his bride the church the stars are the children of God created by Christ and his bride this makes sense.
If there was no sun until the 4th day there could be no growth of vegetation without sunlight so common sense says it must be symbolic.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[David Lamb]

Sure, it could, hypothetically.


No. I agree. I'm just saying that, this sentence isn't about material origins, rather it's about purpose. The reason is what's important (the Christmas party is more important than the cookies).


And, maybe you've responded quickly, but I have an example of why we know that it's ex materia, above. I'll just reshare:

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

And we know that it's ex materia for a variety of reasons. One of which is to simply look at the text:
Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

God didn't create it as chaos. God didn't create it and then Satan destroyed it either. Rather, according to the Bible, it simply was formless when God began to create it.

And this is the same way chapter 2 starts as well. 2:4 to 2:7.

I haven't heard of NRSVUE. I have looked at several English translations. Many say "without form and void," "formless and empty," or something similar. The idea of God creating a chaotic earth is at odds with:

“For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.” (1Co 14:33 NKJV)

But even, for sake of argument, supposing that God did create a chaotic world, then bring order to it, that is still not creation ex materia.

 

[Job 33:6]

I haven't heard of NRSVUE. I have looked at several English translations. Many say "without form and void," "formless and empty," or something similar. The idea of God creating a chaotic earth is at odds with:

“For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.” (1Co 14:33 NKJV)

But even, for sake of argument, supposing that God did create a chaotic world, then bring order to it, that is still not creation ex materia.

The NRSVue is the updated edition of the NRSV. But the NRSV says the same thing.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

And I'd be happy to talk about the Hebrew text as well. Personally, it's just my opinion, but I think that for this topic, these are the most useful translations because they highlight this issue so well. Nothing wrong with the KJV or others. I actually use the ESV and NIV probably more than any other translations. But for this topic, the NRSV and the CEB, I think do the best job of highlighting this topic in a way that is easy for us to see.

And in Genesis, God did not create it and "then" God gave it form. Rather, God creating it "IS" God giving it form.

When I create cookies, it is not me creating them and then giving them form. Rather the creation process IS the process of me giving them form.

Which perfectly aligns with God being the author of peace. Because when He finishes creating the heavens and the earth, is it very good.

And when I finish creating cookies, they are very good too, and that isn't confusion, that's just chocolatey bliss.

 

[Job 33:6]

@David Lamb and don't strawman me, I know you like to do this, I'm watching you

But, there is a difference between God creating a chaotic world and then giving it form, and God taking a chaotic world and creating it by giving it form.

Just as there is a difference between me creating cookies by making them appear out of thin air, and then me giving them form and me simply taking formless cookies and creating them by giving them form.

These are two separate things and I hope that you're able to see that.

Creating=giving form/making
Giving form/making=creating.

When I create cookies, I am making cookies. When I make cookies, I am creating them.

There is no aspect of this equation that involves cookies appearing out of thin air, nor is there any outside parameter. It's just, the cookies were formless when I began making them. That's all.

Just like raw cookie dough is formless when you begin making cookies. And after 6 days, the cookies are finished and they are very good.

It wouldn't make sense to say, he made cookies and then gave them form over 6 days. No no, the 6 days process IS making the cookies. And that making or creating process is not finished until the 6th day (or the 7th).

Genesis 2:1-3 NRSV
[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all their multitude. [2] And on the seventh day God finished the work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all the work that he had done. [3] So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.

You see. God didn't finish creating until either the 6th or 7th day, depending on how you think about the process.

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes, the statement about the cookies is a statement of reason. Just like God saying that the reason for the sun and moon was to give light to the earth. But in neither case does the purpose tell us what the cookies or the sun and moon were made from.

Exactly. Because that's not the purpose of the text. It's not the reason or purpose of the text to tell us where that material came from.

That's the whole crux of the YEC OEC debate. Everyone wants to assume that the story is about where everything came from. But that's not what it's about.

And that's one of the most important observations about Genesis, that someone can make.

And no one should be upset about this, or be upset if the text doesn't tell us how old the earth is. That's not important. That's not what the story is about.

The Christmas party is what's important in this story. Not the cookies themselves. And people see that the cookies are formless and everyone wants to argue about, where the cookies came from.

But that's not what the story is about. Nobody cares if the cookies came from this supermarket or that supermarket. The party is what's important here. And the Genesis story doesn't say where the cookies came from. The reason for the cookies is what's important. Not the origin of the cookies.

When you go to a Christmas party, you don't break out into argument over whether the cookies are Pillsbury brand or if they're some spinoff brand. Nobody cares. That's not what is important.

 

[David Lamb]

The NRSVue is the updated edition of the NRSV. But the NRSV says the same thing.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

Thanks for explaining that. Interesting that NRSV says "formless void" rather than "chaos."

And I'd be happy to talk about the Hebrew text as well. Personally, it's just my opinion, but I think that for this topic, these are the most useful translations because they highlight this issue so well. Nothing wrong with the KJV or others. I actually use the ESV and NIV probably more than any other translations. But for this topic, the NRSV and the CEB, I think do the best job of highlighting this topic in a way that is easy for us to see.

And in Genesis, God did not create it and "then" God gave it form. Rather, God creating it "IS" God giving it form.

I think this is why we are differing on all this. If you say that God creating is God giving something form, and I say that God creating is Him bringing something into existence, that goes a long way to explaining why you seem so keen to say that creation is ex materia.

When I create cookies, it is not me creating them and then giving them form. Rather the creation process IS the process of me giving them form.

Which perfectly aligns with God being the author of peace. Because when He finishes creating the heavens and the earth, is it very good.

And when I finish creating cookies, they are very good too, and that isn't confusion, that's just chocolatey bliss.

When we make anything, we must have something to start with. You need flour and other ingredients, a baking tray and an oven to make cookies. God is almighty, and brought things into existence from nothing.,