Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Nope --- sure didn't --- or you would have posted it. I happen to remember what I said --- do you?
None --- but now you check this:
Do you still think I'm YEC?
AV lives in a world where 6,000 years old is the same as 4.5 billion years old, so the concept really just goes over his head. We've routinely tried to explain to him the meaning of age, and how embedded age is an oxymoron, but to no avail.Yes, because you think that the earth was created 6000 years ago, regardless of what science tells us about the age. The fact that you conflate your YEC beliefs with the notion of "embedded age" or whatever you want to call it is neither here nor there: you believe that the earth is 6000 years old rather than the scientificly derived age of over 4 billion years, therefore you are a YEC.
Fairly straightforward really.
I take the Bible literally, unless the context dictates otherwise. Jesus, and all the writers took took the Scriptures literally, and there's no reason we shouldn't.
You say that you may not rely on yourself as a validating factor. Yet, when deciding what to take litarally, and what not to, you DO use yourself as a validating factor.As I have stated before, taking Genesis 1 allegorically is very dangerous, as it allows the mind of the reader to be the validating factor of how this universe came into existence, and thus there's no way an independent third party can verify its claims. This leads to junk theories about Creation at best, and cultism at worst.
Do you agree that organisms die?Okay --- they're the same --- so Evolution sends out one hit man, instead of two. I submit that still disqualifies it to be included in God's plan of creating a universe with love and harmony.
Then I strongly urge you to limit yout arguments to the following: "I disagree with the theory of evolution because it is against my faith."No, thanks. There are a lot of things I have concluded to be wrong, without studying them in-depth. Evolution is one of them. The fact that I don't know that much about it does not bother me in the least.
I have already demostrated that God created natural selection. Why would God create something that is 'against his principles' ?No --- not at all. In fact, I'm claiming that's one of the reasons natural selection doesn't exist --- it violates God's principles.
So it DOES exist? Why then argue that it does not? And by the way, there is not difference between micro and macro evolution.God did not create natural selection to operate before the Fall; and as I have stated before, it operates on a microevolutionary (adaptation) level, not a macroevolutionary level.
We ARE after the fall, so natural selection is active NOW. I am glad you understand now.I do believe God created natural selection, but He did it knowing what was going to happen, and it sat dormant until after the Fall.
Who are you to decide where God draws ANY lines? The only one who can decide is God himself.Once again, natural selection operates against God's principles on a microevolutionary level, but God draws the line at macroevolution.
All I am saying is that this world doesnt seem to be designed to be NICE. It can be rather unpleasant sometimes (when lived ones die etc.) Not everything in this world is Godly. Evolution happens, and it is not always fair. It is not always nice. It is not always pretty. That does not mean that it does not exist though.I don't want to get into technicalities with you, so I'll agree with you, because I see the point you're making; but for the technically-inclined Bible scholars out there: yes, this world is within the scope of the Kingdom of Heaven, but it is not Heaven (the Kingdom of God), per se.
Your argument looks like this:No --- but Jesus specifically mentions God making Adam and Eve.
Thermodynamics is an extremely complex topic. Since I don't really have a lot of knowledge onthis subject, I will refrain from commenting on it.It's called the Fall --- Sin entering the universe and setting off the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics --- entropy.
Entropy will eventually claim the Universe; but God is going to intervene before that happens.
Only if you read the bible literally.Time --- for one thing. Evolution does not allow for Adam and Eve. Let's compare what evolution says, to what God did, and see if God created it, okay?Do you see, BVZ, how evolution is so opposed to Creation?
- God created the earth before the sun.
- Evolution has the sun before the earth.
- God created the birds before the land animals.
- Evolution has the land animals before the birds.
- God created plant life before the sun.
- Evolution has the sun before the plants.
Why not? Know your enemy.Not a chance.
Thats good.I have learned a few things. One that stands out is the difference between Evolution and Abiogenesis (which I used to think were one and the same).
The more we learn the better.I learned the difference between an Apologist and a Defender of the Faith.
I never heard the terms Young Earth Creation and Old Earth Creation before I came here (I'm neither, BTW.)
If you had knowledge about evolution, you would not have been.I never heard of Omphalos, Last Thursdayism, alleles, or Theistic Evolution until I came here. I was very surprised to see that there are Christians that embrace evolution.
Since you don't know anything about evolution, why would this be sirprising to you either way?But one thing that really stands out to me, is how much Darwin and Evolution are seriously taken.
Yea. Kent Hovind irritates be A LOT.On the flip side, I'm glad (albeit in a sad way) to see that people like Kent Hovind, Lee Strobel, and Ken Ham are put down, as I would expect this. (I imagine Dave Hunt is hated, too; but I'm not asking.)
Which in my view can't make him anything but a YEC, as he doesn't seem to comprehend that you can't claim that the universe was created 6000 years ago without also claiming that the universe is 6000 years old. The fact that he's a YEC almost by accident is irrelevant, he's still a YEC according to the definition.AV lives in a world where 6,000 years old is the same as 4.5 billion years old, so the concept really just goes over his head. We've routinely tried to explain to him the meaning of age, and how embedded age is an oxymoron, but to no avail.
Thermodynamics is an extremely complex topic. Since I don't really have a lot of knowledge onthis subject, I will refrain from commenting on it.
The Universe is eventually going to be nothing but heat, but by that point, there'll be no-one in the Universe left to care.
Fortunately, I do have knowledge of thermodynamics. I'm rather amazed that AV hasn't used the common argument that the 2nd Law precludes evolution, since he's seen fit to invoke heat death theory (which, to my knowledge is true, while the 2nd Law precluding evolution is nonsense).
actually... doesn't heat death say the other thing... eventually all in the universe will be energy-less particles?
I've actually stated before (somewhere) that Evolution cannot work in a Universe running on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics - as I believe that the Bible states the law permeates every facet of God's Creation.
It's not like anyone else got asked what label they would like. Personally, I think "Theistic Evolutionism" sounds like another dopey postmodern paradigm, I'd rather have a title with less emphasis on -isms.The fact that he's a YEC almost by accident is irrelevant, he's still a YEC according to the definition.
In addition, where would the massive amount of information required to evolve upward come from?
I've actually stated before (somewhere) that Evolution cannot work in a Universe running on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics - as I believe that the Bible states the law permeates every facet of God's Creation.
[bible]Romans 8:22[/bible]
Therefore you have genetic entropy as well.
In addition, where would the massive amount of information required to evolve upward come from?
No way! If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it!The second law, which is of interest to us, effectively states that you cannot get more energy out of a system than what you put in, and that you in fact get less. So at first glance, this would seem to preclude evolution, as it would require a massive energy source to power something like that on a planetary scale.
Wrong. Just plain wrong. There is nothing about ANY of the three laws of thermodynamics that say evolution cannot work. They are, as follows:
<image here>
The second law, which is of interest to us, effectively states that you cannot get more energy out of a system than what you put in, and that you in fact get less. So at first glance, this would seem to preclude evolution, as it would require a massive energy source to power something like that on a planetary scale.
Then, you take a look into the sky and have your answer as to how that's possible.
Next PRATT?
No way! If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it!
Wrong. Just plain wrong. There is nothing about ANY of the three laws of thermodynamics that say evolution cannot work. They are, as follows:
The second law, which is of interest to us, effectively states that you cannot get more energy out of a system than what you put in, and that you in fact get less. So at first glance, this would seem to preclude evolution, as it would require a massive energy source to power something like that on a planetary scale.
Then, you take a look into the sky and have your answer as to how that's possible.
Next PRATT?
There is a reason. When taken literally, the bible contradicts itself.
BVZ said:Another thing: You yourself do not take the entire bible litarally.
BVZ said:This implies that you have an objective process you can use to determine which parts of the bible are taken literally, and which parts not to.
Could you please describe this process?
BVZ said:]You say that you may not rely on yourself as a validating factor. Yet, when deciding what to take litarally, and what not to, you DO use yourself as a validating factor.
BVZ said:So... according to you own logic, what prevents YOU from building junk theories, and propogating cultism?
BVZ said:Why do you think so many different brands of Chritianity exists?
BVZ said:It is becaus God left us with no choise but to use ourselves as 'validating factors'.
Do you agree that organisms die?
BVZ said:Do you agree that an organism that is better suited to its environment has a better chance of survival?
BVZ said:If put a penguin in the desert with a camel, the camel has a better chance of survival. If you put them in an arctic environment, the camel will propably die before the penguin.
THIS IS NATURAL SELECTION. Are you saying that God did not create natural selection?
BVZ said:Ask yourself: Did God design organisms in such a way that they are able to die?
BVZ said:Ask yourself: Did God design the world in such a way, that certain organisms are better equiped to survive in some environments than in others?
BVZ said:God created natural selection.
BVZ said:Then I strongly urge you to limit yout arguments to the following: "I disagree with the theory of evolution because it is against my faith."
BVZ said:I don't want to hear about the second law of thermodynamics from you from now on. I dont want to hear about natural selection and mutations from you from now on. I dont want to heat about information being added, deleted, ANYTHING.
BVZ said:You may claim it is against your faith, where we will go "Oh, ok."
BVZ said:I have already demostrated that God created natural selection. Why would God create something that is 'against his principles' ?
BVZ said:So it DOES exist? Why then argue that it does not?
BVZ said:And by the way, there is not difference between micro and macro evolution.
BVZ said:Tell me, whats the difference between waling 100m, and 50km ? The one is further. Thats the only difference.
BVZ said:Micro evolution is when you evolved until you reach a certain point. (100m). You then micro evolve further, until you are macro evolved. (50km)
BVZ said:Who are you to decide where God draws ANY lines? The only one who can decide is God himself.
BVZ said:Since speciation has been OBSERVED, macro evolution DOES happen.
BVZ said:All I am saying is that this world doesnt seem to be designed to be NICE.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?