What's the difference?

[Joshua J. Daigle]

I was born into Adventism and even though I've experimented by going to other denominations to compare doctrines, for the most part I have no idea what separates "Traditional" SDAers from "Progressive" ones. Would anyone mind giving me some comparisons?

I for one love the SDA church, but in the past few years find myself disagreeing with some things that are being said. And I'm wondering, am I a "Progressive" Adventist and unaware of it? Some insight would be nice please.

Joshua

 

[digdeep]

I was born into Adventism and even though I've experimented by going to other denominations to compare doctrines, for the most part I have no idea what separates "Traditional" SDAers from "Progressive" ones. Would anyone mind giving me some comparisons?

I for one love the SDA church, but in the past few years find myself disagreeing with some things that are being said. And I'm wondering, am I a "Progressive" Adventist and unaware of it? Some insight would be nice please.

Joshua

maybe or maybe not. or you may be in between the two. I once read a book titled "Who's Got the Truth" by Martin Weber. He described 5 different versions of the Gospel that is being taugth in the SDA Church. I was totally suprised.

Here is something I found on another web site that may be of use.

DD



HISTORIC ADVENTISTS.
These are they who stand by the old landmarks. They have an EGW quotation for every situation, and in the worst case scenario view her as an extension of the Bible; if she said it, that settles it. They tend to have a focus on Adventist distinctives and are proud of being different, sometimes taking it to mean "superior." They are solid Bible students and are more "religious" in their daily life than the average Christian; they are more likely to witness about their beliefs and not be ashamed of it. Standards and behaviour regulation are a key issue for them and they have clear opinions on music (piano/organ and that's it!), dress (ladies, don't even think about pants or anything less), jewelry (none whatsoever), food (no animal products at all) and anything else you can think of. The world is black and white and they are confident that they are in the right. They have a lifetime subscription to Our Firm Foundation, and will occasionally read the Review while bemoaning how it has fallen. Adventist Today doesn't exist in their view.

Positives of Historic Adventists:

• They are committed to the Adventist movement and sincere in their beliefs.
• Usually excellent Bible students; they know why they believe what they believe
• They help the SDA church to remember the roots and foundations and to help other members hold on to what is good about our past.

Negatives:

• Prone to legalism and exclusiveness
• Emphasis on doctrine and Adventism will sometimes crowd out the message of Jesus
• Use of EGW to whack heads has resulted in, well, you know.
• Extreme cases have also held on to what was BAD in the past (anti-Trinitarianism, racism, etc). Are very resistant to change.

MODERATE ADVENTISTS
These are Historical Adventists without the hard edge. They are proud to be Adventists as well, but are more considerate of different opinions and recognize that Adventists aren't the only true Christians. They believe in all the 28 fundamentals, and while they may personally agree with the Historical position on most standards, they are more willing to be lenient about some of them. Wedding rings are ok, splashy jewelry isn't. Modest dressing is key. Most are vegetarians but don't judge meat-eating Adventists. EGW is respected and believed in, but she isn't used as the basis of doctrine; however if she says something, more often than not they'll accept it. They stick to the Review and Herald, but will sometimes read AToday. If they see Our Firm Foundation, they'll peruse it but they won't subscribe.

Positives of Moderates

• More tolerant than Historicals
• They are usually better at presenting Adventist distinctives to the general world without being exclusive or antagonistic
• Can exist more peaceably with the other three types than those types can with each other

Negatives of Moderates

• Sometimes are too concerned with "fitting in."
• Can lack the zeal of the Historicals; the term "Laodicia" most aptly describes the Moderate Adventists
• Most at risk of becoming cultural Adventists.

PROGRESSIVE ADVENTISTS
These are they who say that the Adventist church needs to change from what it was and join modern times. They say that standards are all subjective, what matters is that people are comfortable with who they are and that Jesus loves us all. Praise and worship music is the order of the day, and the main way you can identify that they are ADVENTISTS is that they meet on Sabbaths. EGW is not acknowledged by most progressive Adventists, and many don't believe in her gift. Other Adventist distinctives are usually downplayed in an attempt to be more inclusive and appear more attractive to other Christians. AToday is their magazine, sometimes they'll browse the Review and Herald. Our Firm Foundation is their kryptonite.

Positives of Progressive Adventists:

• Are usually more concerned about people's well-being than the aforementioned types
• Emphasize God's love and Jesus's grace
• Are the agents of change in the Adventist church, helping it to recognize and adjust to the new era

Negatives of Progressive Adventists:

• Tendency to disregard and downplay the doctrines of the church
• May emphasize feelings and emotions over truth
• Sometimes may try to change something that doesn't need changing, or embrace something new that is actually detrimental to the church

CULTURAL ADVENTISTS
These are they who grew up in the Adventist church and don't really care one way or other about the church or (worst case scenario) about Jesus and Christianity at all. However, all they know is the Adventist lifestyle and they like it, so they just go along with whatever's happening...just as long as no one asks them to do anything in church or to talk about their Christian experience. Their existence shows a dire need for the real message of Jesus in the churches where they grew up.

Positives of Cultural Adventists

• They provide opportunity for witness
• At least they're still IN the church!

Negatives of Cultural Adventists:

• Being a perpetual bench-warmer doesn't help the church at all.

EVANGELICAL ADVENTIST
These Adventists are a subset comprising of Historic, Moderate and Progressive Adventists who are agreed on one thing above all the other disagreements: Only Jesus can save, and only His Righteousness is perfect. They put their trust in Him, and thus they don't really worry about their differences in music taste, food eating, activities, etc. They agree on the basic standards and Christ's mission is what consumes them. They are Christians first, Adventists second.

 

[Joshua J. Daigle]

Okay, I am definitely NOT a Traditional Adventist. I think I may be about 60% Moderate and 40% Progressive. My views on Ellen White tend to lean strongly to the Progressive side. While I believe that she may have wrote some things of merit, I tend to disagree the way some people elevate her to an almost quasi-deity status; that her writings are somehow on equal footing with the Bible. A little too much hero worship for my tastes. I do, however, like the Evangelical view about how we should be Christians first and Adventist second.

Any other viewpoints/opinions?

 

[Mankin]

Hey Joshua. Welcome to the Adventist forums. There are different definitions of Progressive Adventism and no two of them are alike. However they tend to be more tolerant of others beliefs.

 

[tall73]

For the purposes of this site a progressive is someone who does NOT accept at least one fundamental belief, or understand one or more in a way that is significantly different from the usual understanding.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Here is the article I wrote for Adventist Today on the subject:
Traditional and Progressive SDA's ...Truth Traditional or Progressive

Here is the Atoday link since they have reorganized their website and I have not updated my page to link to the new Atoday site:
Progressive and Traditional Adventists Examined

 

[honorthesabbath]

Hey Joshua. Welcome to the Adventist forums. There are different definitions of Progressive Adventism and no two of them are alike. However they tend to be more tolerant of others beliefs.

Actually this is not true. A mere sampling of the threads in this sub-forum will quickly show the intolerence that the progs have for the historic or traditional SDA's. They are as a matter of fact, down right nasty and rude in their language in describing the trads.

 

[RND]

Okay, I am definitely NOT a Traditional Adventist. I think I may be about 60% Moderate and 40% Progressive. My views on Ellen White tend to lean strongly to the Progressive side. While I believe that she may have wrote some things of merit, I tend to disagree the way some people elevate her to an almost quasi-deity status; that her writings are somehow on equal footing with the Bible. A little too much hero worship for my tastes. I do, however, like the Evangelical view about how we should be Christians first and Adventist second.

Any other viewpoints/opinions?

If other people wrongly elevate the teachings and writings of EGW is the problem with other people or with the teachings and writings of EGW? Are her teachings and writings lessened because people make more out of her than what she even desired?

If I tell everyone what a great guy my dentist is but later he's convicted of spousal abuse is the problem with me or him?
If I tell everyone what a great guy my dentist is but later I'm convicted of running moonshine is the problem with him or me?

I don't consider EGW to be a specific prophetess of God either but at the same time I do not discount that she wrote or that she may indeed have been spoken to, and directed by God as to what to write.

I think God does that with our pastor regarding the sermon that is preached on Sabbath.

 

[Joshua J. Daigle]

Actually this is not true. A mere sampling of the threads in this sub-forum will quickly show the intolerence that the progs have for the historic or traditional SDA's. They are as a matter of fact, down right nasty and rude in their language in describing the trads.

Yes I have been doing a little catching up and reading the witty banter that goes on back and forth between the Trads and Progs, and it's apparent that there is mud-slinging on both sides. I have seen intolerance on both sides, so please, if you are going to point out the fault in one please be fair and point out the fault in both. No one side can claim that there hands are clean.

 

[Joshua J. Daigle]

If other people wrongly elevate the teachings and writings of EGW is the problem with other people or with the teachings and writings of EGW? Are her teachings and writings lessened because people make more out of her than what she even desired?

If I tell everyone what a great guy my dentist is but later he's convicted of spousal abuse is the problem with me or him?
If I tell everyone what a great guy my dentist is but later I'm convicted of running moonshine is the problem with him or me?

I don't consider EGW to be a specific prophetess of God either but at the same time I do not discount that she wrote or that she may indeed have been spoken to, and directed by God as to what to write.

I think God does that with our pastor regarding the sermon that is preached on Sabbath.

I see and understand your point. My problem is not so much with Ellen White but those who chose to place her on a pedestal, that I personally believe, she doesn't belong. I have been to some SDA churches where the entirety of the sermon was based on the writings of Ellen White and not one scriptural reference was made to the Bible. I personally think that there's a problem with that. I worship in the house of God, not Ellen.

 

[Joshua J. Daigle]

Here is the article I wrote for Adventist Today on the subject:
Traditional and Progressive SDA's ...Truth Traditional or Progressive

Here is the Atoday link since they have reorganized their website and I have not updated my page to link to the new Atoday site:
Progressive and Traditional Adventists Examined

Hmmm...good info to digest. I will have to re-read it again this weekend.

 

[Mankin]

This coming from the most intolerant person on this board Honor.

 

[StormyOne]

Actually this is not true. A mere sampling of the threads in this sub-forum will quickly show the intolerence that the progs have for the historic or traditional SDA's. They are as a matter of fact, down right nasty and rude in their language in describing the trads.

not even close to being true... sounds like you are describing yourself.....

 

[BGMCFAR]

I see and understand your point. My problem is not so much with Ellen White but those who chose to place her on a pedestal, that I personally believe, she doesn't belong. I have been to some SDA churches where the entirety of the sermon was based on the writings of Ellen White and not one scriptural reference was made to the Bible. I personally think that there's a problem with that. I worship in the house of God, not Ellen.

Josh I grew up in the SDA church, I would say that I'm prohabily Evangilical because as christians that spreding the gospel of Jesus Christ is more im,portant than any doctrine or legalistic ideas or what I eat or if I ware a wedding ring or whatever My daily relationship with Christ to me is the most important thing in the world I do my part and leave the rest of to the Lord and I communicate with him daily cause I'm a sinner and I'm a human being and Christ knows and He loves me YET WHILE I WAS A SINNER CHRIST DIED FOR ME.

 

[RND]

I see and understand your point. My problem is not so much with Ellen White but those who chose to place her on a pedestal, that I personally believe, she doesn't belong. I have been to some SDA churches where the entirety of the sermon was based on the writings of Ellen White and not one scriptural reference was made to the Bible. I personally think that there's a problem with that. I worship in the house of God, not Ellen.

JJD, my pastor occaisionally uses Mrs. White in some of his sermons, but uses her in what I think is the proper way, for clarification, emphasis or teaching. He certainly doesn't base his entire sermons on her, but the Bible. However it's been a couple of weeks since I last her him say, "Mrs White puts it this way..." or "Mrs White describes it as..."

In this sense I see this no differently that a Calvinist pastor quoting Calvin, or a Lutheran pastor quoting Luther, etc. But I certainly see what you're saying about some who seemingly deify Mrs. White. I'm certain that she would be absolutely mortified by that if she were alive today.

 

[reddogs]

I see and understand your point. My problem is not so much with Ellen White but those who chose to place her on a pedestal, that I personally believe, she doesn't belong. I have been to some SDA churches where the entirety of the sermon was based on the writings of Ellen White and not one scriptural reference was made to the Bible. I personally think that there's a problem with that. I worship in the house of God, not Ellen.

It is a real problem, everytime I heard "La Senora White dice" (Sister White says) I would cringe, because I knew the next thing was probably going to be what I could or could not do. It was sometimes a terrible misconstruing of the context or misinterpretation and yet no one could question it or correct the person saying it. Ellen White specifically told the church not to use her as their source of truth, but learn from the truths from the bible, she could see the dangers some were going into by neglecting to learn truth from scripture. She was very clear on this and yet many still dont get it, here is a thread on had on it.. "Lay Sister White right to one side.."

 

[Joshua J. Daigle]

Josh I grew up in the SDA church, I would say that I'm prohabily Evangilical because as christians that spreding the gospel of Jesus Christ is more im,portant than any doctrine or legalistic ideas or what I eat or if I ware a wedding ring or whatever My daily relationship with Christ to me is the most important thing in the world I do my part and leave the rest of to the Lord and I communicate with him daily cause I'm a sinner and I'm a human being and Christ knows and He loves me YET WHILE I WAS A SINNER CHRIST DIED FOR ME.

Exactly. I've gone to too many churches where it seems that being an Adventist is more important than being a Christian; and that unsettles me.

 

[Joshua J. Daigle]

JJD, my pastor occaisionally uses Mrs. White in some of his sermons, but uses her in what I think is the proper way, for clarification, emphasis or teaching. He certainly doesn't base his entire sermons on her, but the Bible. However it's been a couple of weeks since I last her him say, "Mrs White puts it this way..." or "Mrs White describes it as..."

In this sense I see this no differently that a Calvinist pastor quoting Calvin, or a Lutheran pastor quoting Luther, etc. But I certainly see what you're saying about some who seemingly deify Mrs. White. I'm certain that she would be absolutely mortified by that if she were alive today.

I agree. I have no problem with a pastor using Ellen White to reemphasize a scripture. But I've seen on more than one occasion people trying to use the Bible to back up the claims of Ellen White, often completely out of context. I think to myself, "If they were as passionate about promoting the Bible as they are Ellen, maybe more people could be reached."

 

[Joshua J. Daigle]

It is a real problem, everytime I heard "La Senora White dice" (Sister White says) I would cringe, because I knew the next thing was probably going to be what I could or could not do. It was sometimes a terrible misconstruing of the context or misinterpretation and yet no one could question it or correct the person saying it. Ellen White specifically told the church not to use her as their source of truth, but learn from the truths from the bible, she could see the dangers some were going into by neglecting to learn truth from scripture. She was very clear on this and yet many still dont get it, here is a thread on had on it.. "Lay Sister White right to one side.."

Yep. I've known of at least a couple of occasions were people in the local churches didn't agree about the way a pastor or guest speaker was using Ellen in regards to their message. Despite that, they refuse to speak out about it because there is the perception that if you openly question Ellen White that the "powers that be" will descend upon you like the Inquisition. Most people don't feel it's worth the headache and so it continues.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

It is far more then quoting Ellen in church. There are people on this forum who complain about the evangelical gospel because it does not contain Ellen white. The 'Evangelical Gospel' verses 'The Testimony of Christ'

There it is indicated that the SDA doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is the "testimony of Jesus".

If Ellen White's use was to point to the Bible that would not be a problem within or without the SDA church but that is not the case. Ellen is used as a divine interpreter of the Bible and that is the problem. No one has a problem with quotes that are wise whether they are from Mark Twain or Ellen White. It is the force that her authority is that of a prophet who you must follow their interpretation of scriptures whether or not the Scriptures actually say what the so called prophet says...that is the problem.