What's the difference?

[ghs1994]

What are the major differences between anabaptists and baptists? Just simple answers if you would please. Thanks.

 

[Danfrey]

Baptist----------------------------------------- Anabaptist
Calvinist ---------------------------------------Arminian
Total Depravity ------------------------------Man can make a decision for God
Unconditional Election ---------------------Open to all based on faith
Limited Atonement --------------------------Jesus died for all, not the just few
Irresistable Grace ----------------------------Can reject Jesus' calling
preservation of the saints -----------------Loss of salvation possible
ok to kill as agent of state -----------------non-resistant (pacifist)

This is all I can think of off the top of my head, maybe someone else can add to the list. I would say that Anabaptists are much closer theologically to Methodists or Penticostals than they are to Baptists.

 

[ghs1994]

Baptist----------------------------------------- Anabaptist
Calvinist ---------------------------------------Arminian
Total Depravity ------------------------------Man can make a decision for God
Unconditional Election ---------------------Open to all based on faith
Limited Atonement --------------------------Jesus died for all, not the just few
Irresistable Grace ----------------------------Can reject Jesus' calling
preservation of the saints -----------------Loss of salvation possible
ok to kill as agent of state -----------------non-resistant (pacifist)

This is all I can think of off the top of my head, maybe someone else can add to the list. I would say that Anabaptists are much closer theologically to Methodists or Penticostals than they are to Baptists.

I don't want to debate, but I do have a few questions.

1. Do Anabaptists believe man can choose God without God first calling them?

2. Can you give me some scripture that is basis for believing that salvation can be lost?

Thanks for your help.

 

[catlover]

What are the major differences between anabaptists and baptists? Just simple answers if you would please. Thanks.

Anabaptists do not believe in nationalism~

 

[MrJim]

I don't want to debate, but I do have a few questions.

1. Do Anabaptists believe man can choose God without God first calling them?

2. Can you give me some scripture that is basis for believing that salvation can be lost?

Thanks for your help.

1. God calls all to repentance. John 3:16 speaks of "whosoever will", and we don't believe that the whosoevers are a special lottery-winning elect.
2. Salvation is not lost like a lucky penny, but rather a person can repent of Christianity (so to speak) and turn their back on their salvation.

Matthew 13 and the parable of the seeds points toward examples of those that were Christians and then turned away.

There are many passages that speak of conditional salvation, lots of phrases like "...if ye continue" that point to a faithful "love-obedient relationship" with God through Jesus Christ. Why would Paul exhort the Phillipian church to:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." [Phil 2:13]? Fear & trembling doesn't sound very secure...implies a doing. There are other passages, but then this isn't a debate, is it? I'm sure one of our Dans will contribute to this.

Now before the usual collection of scriptures from the OSAS lands like a tsunami, let me say that every one of them are correct. As long as you are in a faithful "love-obedient" relationship with Jesus Christ, nothing can separate you from the love of God. Nothing can pluck you from His hand. We conditional folks don't invalidate the "hard" scriptures. I will say there is much mystery involved in this, and I don't pretend to understand it all, for I am still learning-this is my POV.

[I was calvinist for 10 years, I know their theology--for me it was the BIGGEST reason for separating the anabaptists from the baptists.]

 

[Danfrey]

Menno,

Thanks for fielding the questions. I am running on two hours of sleep and do not have the stamina to explain it today.

GHS1994,

Please forgive me for a lack of response. You are in capable hands with Menno. I consider him a brother whom I trust.

 

[MrJim]

A truly powerful passage that has been haunting me the past few months is from Matthew 25:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

NOW why isn't the separation on what ya believe? Why isn't the division between the "believers" and the "nonbelievers"? My goodness, the separation is by works...we would say outworking of faith, but still works nonetheless...

Why doesn't the Son of Man, in His judgement say "You believed properly, into your inherited Kingdom" and "You believed wrongly, into everlasting fire with you"? Because there is more to this faith we call Christianity than meets the eye. I believe that when I was first learning about the faith after my conversion I was sold a "bill of goods" by American evangelicalism.

Cheap grace, easy believism, call it what you will....

 

[ghs1994]

It does all seem very confusing at times. I guess that's why I don't really follow any type of systematic theology. To me, it is as simple as those who believe will be saved and those who don't will be eternally punished. The evidence of salvation is brought forth in a person's life.

One question though:

What would be the fate of a man who would be on his death bed and come to the conclusion that he needs Christ to forgive him his sins and redeem his soul?

Must he work to gain that salvation or is it by faith? I don't understand how it can be both. It's either by faith in Christ alone which brings about works, or it is faith plus works. Which is it?

Why can't we just judge by the fruit of the tree?

 

[Danfrey]

On the death bed, it is pretty hard to see the fruit. God knows the heart of a man and how he would live his life if the deathbed were not present. Salvation is not fire insurance. I wouldn't want to wait until I am on my deathbed to accept him.

It helps for me to view faith as belief in action. You can believe a life preserver will save your life, but it is not faith until you jump off the boat.

 

[MrJim]

It does all seem very confusing at times. I guess that's why I don't really follow any type of systematic theology. To me, it is as simple as those who believe will be saved and those who don't will be eternally punished. The evidence of salvation is brought forth in a person's life.

One question though:

What would be the fate of a man who would be on his death bed and come to the conclusion that he needs Christ to forgive him his sins and redeem his soul?

Must he work to gain that salvation or is it by faith? I don't understand how it can be both. It's either by faith in Christ alone which brings about works, or it is faith plus works. Which is it?

Why can't we just judge by the fruit of the tree?

Judging by the fruit of the tree is exactly what we're talking about here...

James 2:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Remember, it's a "love-obedient" relationship were talking about here. Deathbed conversions cannot be tossed out because there were no "works", neither can works alone be used as justification for salvation--there are many that do good works but are not Christians. Love comes first, then obedience....

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

In the end it is not ours to judge another's salvation. We can examine the fruits of their lives, come along side to exhort & encourage, maybe even at times with the Church be involved in discipline, but never to say "You ain't saved anymore".

 

[MrJim]

Also ghs1994, it's interesting to note that said that you don't follow any systematic theology. You are in good company here, there is no systematic theology amongst the anabaptists.

You'll find confessions, statements of faith, but no "systematic theology". Anabaptist church never put much "faith" in theology, which at times has led to some other sorts of issues. It is best described (when working correctly) as faith in action, going about doing the work of the Kingdom of God. What counts is what is done, not what is talked about.

 

[Danfrey]

In response to your prior post

Well put Menno,

I was having a conversation with my mother today about the difference in attacking a person (aka Judging) and attacking false doctrine. Someone once said, hate the sin, love the sinner.

 

[catlover]

It is best described (when working correctly) as faith in action, going about doing the work of the Kingdom of God. What counts is what is done, not what is talked about.

I like that...I wish there were Anabaptists in the area.There are Mennonites but they are extremely conservative, the ladies wear the little hats with bobbi pins.

 

[MrJim]

I like that...I wish there were Anabaptists in the area.There are Mennonites but they are extremely conservative, the ladies wear the little hats with bobbi pins.

Learn to know them...(I will admit I'm a little prejudiced about mennonite ladies with coverings--I automatically trust them ) you may be surprised to know that they are some valuable sisters and they don't bite (well not hard anyways ). Many, depending on their group, aren't as conservative as their dress/coverings may portray.

 

[ghs1994]

On the death bed, it is pretty hard to see the fruit. God knows the heart of a man and how he would live his life if the deathbed were not present. Salvation is not fire insurance. I wouldn't want to wait until I am on my deathbed to accept him.

It helps for me to view faith as belief in action. You can believe a life preserver will save your life, but it is not faith until you jump off the boat.

Ok, but what about the question?

Is it faith alone in Christ for salvation while the works show evidence of that fact?

Is it faith plus works as the only way to salvation?

So when does acceptance become salvation? Is it only when our faith begins to work or is it upon confessing our sin and accepting Jesus Christ as Savior?

It can't be both. It has to be one or the other.

 

[ghs1994]

Sorry, didn't want to sit on 666 posts. LOL!!!!

 

[MrJim]

We are not saved by "faith alone"--try a scripture search you won't find this combo together--nor works of faith...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Faith in God and "works" (which are simply part of the love-obedient relationship--note that the same passage above speak of the "good works" that God had "ordained that we should walk in them") are just parts of the salvation...the key is GRACE, a very underrated characteristic of God.

We cannot point to our "works" and say that "God will save me because I did this"--that would be foolish. Our work in the Kingdom is simply an outreach of love, and without love any work in the Kingdom is simply a waste...that's what Paul said:

I Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity [love], I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Don't let yourself become consumed with the faith/works issue. You need to consider where your obedient-love relationship is with God and with your brothers & sisters and your neighbors. God wants us to be at work in His Kingdom presenting His gospel, caring for the "least of these", and walking in the good works He's called us to do. Beware of the theological joustings that can cause ya to be burdened with a lot of unnecessary baggage--been there (maybe still there a little).

 

[CelticRose]

My 2 cents worth - & I don't have my bible to hand while being in a rush but in one of John's epistles I think you will find the scripture that says ''If you love me you will do my will.''

Faith & actions abide together. When one loves Christ love compels one to act as Christ would act, to effectively be his hands, his feet, his voice to a hurting world.

 

[RickH]

I also believe that if you truly love God, works are bound to happen. John 14:15 Jesus himself tells us that if we love him, we are to obey his commandments. Obeying the commandments is defined by some as works. But I think that we should love god with all of our heart (Mark 12:30) and tell him "Jesus, I love you so much that I want to know what I can do further for you today". We should dig in our Bibles, follow the Spirit and really find what he wants us to do for him. Yes, some will go deeper or be convicted more than others but I do think it is something that Jesus wants us to do. If we start with the two greatest commandments (Mark 12:28-31) we are off to a good start.
Also, if you are truly curious, try attending the church that you mentioned. I started out of curiosity and within two or three visits, I knew it was my calling. The brothers and sisters were so welcoming and caring. I studied and learned why they believe how they do and discovered that I can understand why and now I have very strong thoughts and beliefs. You may or may not come to the same conclusion, but if you are possibly looking for something different it may be worth the visit.
God bless,
Rick

 

[Danfrey]

Ok, but what about the question?

Is it faith alone in Christ for salvation while the works show evidence of that fact?

Is it faith plus works as the only way to salvation?

So when does acceptance become salvation? Is it only when our faith begins to work or is it upon confessing our sin and accepting Jesus Christ as Savior?

It can't be both. It has to be one or the other.

Faith without works is not faith at all. We can thank Augustine for the faith "alone" teaching that reappeared at the time of the reformation. The early Christians had no problem seeing faith and works as interconnected. It becomes salvation when one has a loving obedient relationship with Jesus. The problem with the idea that faith and works are seperate issues is really dealt with well in James 1. It is not our works that save us, like many have said on here, yet faith and works are not seperate issues.

I used to get past the faith and works discussion with people of reformed backgrounds by asking what the end result is of someone who does not living according to the teachings of Jesus. Most would agree that hell is the end result. The Calvinists would say the person was never saved. The Arminians would say that the person backslid, but the end result would be the same. Then on the extreme side of things you have those who honestly believe that once they repeat the sinners prayer it doesn't matter how they live their lives. Or you have those who are trying to earn their way into heaven by works alone without the blood of Christ.

Much damage has been caused by seperating faith and works into seperate issues.