What's the Difference Between "Presbyterians" and "Congregationalists"?

[WisdomTree]

I already asked this on a Denomination-specific Theology area (http://www.christianforums.com/t7716728/), but got little response and the response I got was unsatisfactory so I'm asking here.

Apart from the obvious polity system, what are the different doctrines between these two Reformed groups?

Thanks,

Hansol

 

[student ad x]

Are you looking for the differences between Reformed/Presby vs Reformed/Congregationalist i.e. John Owen or Reformed/Particular Baptist (congregationalist)

 

[iambren]

I heard that doctrinally they were identical but congregational was what they called themselves in the North, presbyterian in the South (may have flipped that). Anyway it's a geography thing.

 

[Keachian]

I already asked this on a Denomination-specific Theology area (http://www.christianforums.com/t7716728/), but got little response and the response I got was unsatisfactory so I'm asking here.

Apart from the obvious polity system, what are the different doctrines between these two Reformed groups?

Thanks,

Hansol

From what I can tell the church polity is the largest difference between the two groups, and these two groups generally are differentiated from Reformed Baptists who also have congregationalist polity by their stance for paedo-baptism as opposed to the Reformed Baptists who are for credobaptism instead.

 

[DeaconDean]

Only to add to what has been said, polity is the biggest issues.

Presbyterians still have and use the separate class of "elders". This can be broken down into three categories: elders as in older members of the congregation; elders who are one step up from deacons, but one step down from "ruling" elders; and "ruling elders" who are equal to bishops/pastors.

Congregationalists typically only recognize two church "offices": Pastors, and Deacons.

Another difference is theology. Presbterians tend to be not only Reformed, but also lean more to Covenantalism.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Keachian]

Baptists aren't Covenantal? Covenant Theology: A Reformed and Baptistic Perspective on God (Book) - Books - Calvinism

CHAPTER 7; OF GOD’S COVENANT
Paragraph 1.
The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience to Him as their creator, yet they could never have attained the reward of life but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which He hath been pleased to express by way of covenant.
Paragraph 2.
Moreover, man having brought himself under the curse of the law by his fall, it pleased the Lord to make a covenant of grace, wherein He freely offers unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved; and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life, His Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe.
Paragraph 3.
This covenant is revealed in the gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman, and afterwards by farther steps, until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament; and it is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect; and it is alone by the grace of this covenant that all the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved did obtain life and blessed immortality, man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency.
-- 2LBCF 1689​

 

[DeaconDean]

Baptists aren't Covenantal? Covenant Theology: A Reformed and Baptistic Perspective on God (Book) - Books - Calvinism

CHAPTER 7; OF GOD’S COVENANT
Paragraph 1.
The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience to Him as their creator, yet they could never have attained the reward of life but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which He hath been pleased to express by way of covenant.
Paragraph 2.
Moreover, man having brought himself under the curse of the law by his fall, it pleased the Lord to make a covenant of grace, wherein He freely offers unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved; and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life, His Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe.
Paragraph 3.
This covenant is revealed in the gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman, and afterwards by farther steps, until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament; and it is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect; and it is alone by the grace of this covenant that all the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved did obtain life and blessed immortality, man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency.
-- 2LBCF 1689
​

Coincidence, the first Baptist Confession in America, says the same thing:

Chapter 7

Of God's Covenant

1. The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto Him as their Creator, yet they could never have attained the reward of life, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which He hath been pleased to express, by way of covenant.1
   
2. Moreover, man having brought himself under the curse of the law by his fall, it pleased the Lord to make a covenant of grace,2 wherein He freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in Him, that they might be saved;3 and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life, His Holy Spirit, to make them willing, and able to believe.4
   
3. This covenant is revealed in the gospel first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman,5 and afterwards by farther steps, until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament;6 and it is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect;7 and it is alone by the grace of this covenant that all of the posterity of fallen Adam, that ever were saved did obtain life and blessed immortality; man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency.8
   

Footnotes: ​

1. Lk 17:10; Job 35:7-8.
2. Ge 2:17; Gal.3:10; Ro 3:20-21.
3. Ro 8:3; Mk 16:15-16; Jn 3:16.
4. Eze 36:26-27; Jn 6:44-45; Ps 110:3.
5. Ge 3:15.
6. Heb 1:1.
7. 2Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2.
8. Heb 11:6,13; Ro 4:1-2; Ac 4:12; Jn 8:56.

philadelphia confession-chapter 7

But you cannot make that kind of "blanket" expression and say it covered all Baptists. By the early 1900's, most Baptists also adopted "Dispensational" Theology. Saying Baptists are Covental, would equate to saying Baptists are Dispensational too.

However, by the 1830's Baptists had moved away from that expression.

In or around 1833, there was the big split between General Baptists and Particular Baptists. One of the leading causes was the abolitionist movement.

By the time of the issue of the New Hampshire Confession of Faith in 1833, that section was missing.

See here.

By the way, one of the first Baptist Associations founded in the "South" the "Principles of Faith of the Sandy Creek Association" in 1816, those particular phrases were missing also.

In 1858, James P. Boyce wrote the standard for Southern Baptists (Abstract of Principles) that was used until the Baptist Faith and Message was written in 1925.

While we may have been in the past, I don't think it taught now.

I know it wasn't when I went through seminary in the early 2000's.

The only "covenant" i know of that we teach that we (Baptist theology) are under, is this one:

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises." -Heb. 8:6 (KJV)

And, I must point out that not all Baptists are Reformed in their theology.

I was raised an Independant Baptist and only came to Reformed Theology in seminary.

Walter J. Cantry wrote an article on "Baptism and Covenant Theology".

So it would be safe to say that some Baptists do share the same theology as Presbyterians and those of the Reformed Faith, but we are no where as dogmatic on "Covenant Theology" as some are.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Keachian]

Coincidence, the first Baptist Confession in America, says the same thing:



philadelphia confession-chapter 7

But you cannot make that kind of "blanket" expression and say it covered all Baptists. By the early 1900's, most Baptists also adopted "Dispensational" Theology. Saying Baptists are Covental, would equate to saying Baptists are Dispensational too.

I wasn't making that statement, it just appeared to me that you were making a strong statement that Congregationalists (of which I'd consider Baptists to be sort of a subgroup) are not Covenantal and so I responded, it is nice to know that you acknowledge that there is diversity.

However, by the 1830's Baptists had moved away from that expression.

In or around 1833, there was the big split between General Baptists and Particular Baptists. One of the leading causes was the abolitionist movement.

By the time of the issue of the New Hampshire Confession of Faith in 1833, that section was missing.

See here.

By the way, one of the first Baptist Associations founded in the "South" the "Principles of Faith of the Sandy Creek Association" in 1816, those particular phrases were missing also.

In 1858, James P. Boyce wrote the standard for Southern Baptists (Abstract of Principles) that was used until the Baptist Faith and Message was written in 1925.

While we may have been in the past, I don't think it taught now.

In America, from my limited knowledge of Australian Baptist Theology, we're covenantal, in fact I've been covenantal longer than I've been Reformed, most of us across the pond simply scratch our heads at dispensationalism.

I know it wasn't when I went through seminary in the early 2000's.

The only "covenant" i know of that we teach that we (Baptist theology) are under, is this one:

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises." -Heb. 8:6 (KJV)

Yes, that's how I'd explain it

And, I must point out that not all Baptists are Reformed in their theology.

I had a long argument with a Baptist attending a non-baptist church on this issue, I also go to a non-Reformed Baptist Church.

I was raised an Independant Baptist and only came to Reformed Theology in seminary.

I'm largely under the influence of James White and Sydney Anglicans in regards to Reformed Theology so that makes me thoroughly Covenantal and amill, their arguments make sense to me.

Walter J. Cantry wrote an article on "Baptism and Covenant Theology".

Thanks I'll have a read.

So it would be safe to say that some Baptists do share the same theology as Presbyterians and those of the Reformed Faith, but we are no where as dogmatic on "Covenant Theology" as some are.

Well if you consider baptism as the mark of the covenant imo you're already buying into Presby theology, what did Christ say? "They will know you are my followers..."

 

[A New Dawn]

Many Congregationalist churches became part of the United Church of Christ. The ones that didn't became independent non-denominational churches. The non-denominational church I attend used to be Congregationalist, but now is just a mostly reformed non-denominational church.

 

[student ad x]

For me, the biggest difference between the Reformed/Presbyterians & Baptists, when I got down into it, is hermeneutics. It is in the differing hermeneutic principles that the differences in church polity, covenantal views, and the sacraments/ordinances became manifest after the Reformation.

 

[DeaconDean]

Well if you consider baptism as the mark of the covenant imo you're already buying into Presby theology, what did Christ say? "They will know you are my followers..."

I was with you up to this point.

That is one of two points that keeps me from being Presbyterian.

I disagree with the Presbyterian viewpoint on the ordinances.

He also said:

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." -Mt. 7:16-20 (KJV)

If baptism is the mark of entering into the "covenant", millions, no, billions, no trillions missed the mark because there have been some who upon their death bed repented and believed, including the thief on the cross.

So:

if you consider baptism as the mark of the covenant imo you're already buying into Presby theology,

The proper answer from me would be no I don't.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[WisdomTree]

Thanks for the answers!