What's the Calvinist definition of "faith"?

[splat]

I mean as in "having faith" not as in belonging to a denomination. If someone was to say "I'm of the Baptist faith" that's not what I mean. I am presuming your definition doesn't define it in terms of libertarian free will hence I am curious how you define it.

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter 14
Saving Faith

1. The grace of faith, by which the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily produced through the ministry of the Word. This faith is increased and strengthened by the same means, and also by the administration of the sacraments and prayer.

2. By this faith, a Christian believes to be true whatever is revealed in the Word, because of the authority of God himself speaking in it. He also responds differently to what each particular passage contains—obeying the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come. But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.

3. This faith varies in degrees. It may be weak or strong. It may often, and in many ways, be assailed and weakened, but it gains the victory. It matures in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ, who is both the author and the perfecter of our faith.

 

[splat]

So when we refer to "saving faith" I presume we are referring to the initial "born again" or conversion experience?

 

[splat]

1. The grace of faith, by which the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily produced through the ministry of the Word. This faith is increased and strengthened by the same means, and also by the administration of the sacraments and prayer.

What do you understand by "increased and strengthened"? I presume that this indicates the existence of weak and strong faith? What do you see as the difference between these two? Are they both able to make it to heaven?

 

[splat]

Also I am wondering if Calvinists see faith serving any purpose post-conversion? If so, what?

 

[Eddie L]

Also I am wondering if Calvinists see faith serving any purpose post-conversion? If so, what?

That's a very odd question. OF COURSE faith serves a purpose post-conversion. Faith is what connects us to Christ. What would be the point of a faith that converts us if that faith does not connect us to the One Who Saves Us? Conversion is not the end goal of faith. It is just the beginning.

 

[Eddie L]

I see you are "Word of Faith". Does that mean you believe that "faith is a force, and words are the containers of that force"? If so, I can see why you'd struggle with our view of faith. Though your struggle isn't just with Calvinists. It's with anyone who sees faith as the practical experience of the very real dependence we have on God for all things, including our redemption in Christ.

 

[splat]

I see you are "Word of Faith". Does that mean you believe that "faith is a force, and words are the containers of that force"? If so, I can see why you'd struggle with our view of faith. Though your struggle isn't just with Calvinists. It's with anyone who sees faith as the practical experience of the very real dependence we have on God for all things, including our redemption in Christ.

Well, I am not sure what my position has to do with your definition of "faith" so I guess you are trying to relate what is different about my view of faith to yours.

My background in the WOF teachings doesn't mean that my understanding is exactly 100% the same as theirs. However I do believe Mark 11:22-24 is for every Christian today. However I don't interpret vs 22 exactly the same way as typical of mainstream WOF. So it may be easier and simpler for you to explain how your view of faith differs from, say, standard arminianism than to try and compare it with some view that you might otherwise imagine I have.

Hope that helps

 

[splat]

That's a very odd question. OF COURSE faith serves a purpose post-conversion. Faith is what connects us to Christ. What would be the point of a faith that converts us if that faith does not connect us to the One Who Saves Us? Conversion is not the end goal of faith. It is just the beginning.

Ok, let's take an Arminian as an example. They would view faith as necessary for the ongoing work of salvation/conversion and persevering to the end. However, in the Calvinist view, as I understand it, your faith, post-conversion, doesn't need to persevere. Therefore any post-conversion faith must serve another purpose. I was simply wondering what that purpose might be?

 

[splat]

I see you are "Word of Faith". Does that mean you believe that "faith is a force, and words are the containers of that force"?

To attempt to answer that question I would have to say I've not heard that terminology before. I have not heard of this "faith force" not the "containers". Is it possible that you are referring to the venacular of a certain faith preacher that I don't follow?

 

[Eddie L]

Ok, let's take an Arminian as an example. They would view faith as necessary for the ongoing work of salvation/conversion and persevering to the end. However, in the Calvinist view, as I understand it, your faith, post-conversion, doesn't need to persevere. Therefore any post-conversion faith must serve another purpose. I was simply wondering what that purpose might be?

You misunderstand our view. We believe that we will persevere because our faith is being sustained by the power of God. No persevering faith would mean no genuine conversion.

 

[Eddie L]

I'm bored, so I'll clarify my last post.

There is a view out there call "Once Saved Always Saved" (OSAS) that was provided via Dallas Theological Seminary years ago. It isn't so popular anymore, and I heard that DTS doesn't teach it anymore, either. This view held that once a person had prayed a sinner's prayer with any degree of belief, they were saved for all time no matter what happens next.

That is NOT Calvinism.

Calvinism has a doctrine called "Perseverance of the Saints". This view holds that since our faith is a result of the Spirit's work on our behalf, any person being saved by God will ultimately persevere. It is God Himself that is holding up our faith, so it will last.

A lot of people say they are OSAS without realizing the difference between that view and Perseverance. Both agree that justification lasts forever. They just don't agree on the lasting effect of of grace on the faith that justifies.

 

[splat]

Ok, I have heard some people refer to an adaptation of OSAS as ISAS (if saved always saved) so perhaps thats what you mean.

So, for a Calvinist, does post-salvation faith equate to simply stating "God's in control" or is there more to it than that?

 

[Eddie L]

Ok, I have heard some people refer to an adaptation of OSAS as ISAS (if saved always saved) so perhaps thats what you mean.

So, for a Calvinist, does post-salvation faith equate to simply stating "God's in control" or is there more to it than that?

What? Splat, you say the most odd things.

 

[splat]

What? Splat, you say the most odd things.

Maybe, but you didn't answer my question.

I notice that you are the only one who has engaged me so far. Do you all take shifts or something?

Maybe you feel that you take the "orthodox" position and therefore any statement is redundant. If so there should be plenty of web links that you can direct me to. Feel free

 

[splat]

Ok, I'll try and clarify. I understand that Calvinists hold to meticulous providence. Therefore that rules out any prayers being answered that were not already answered before the foundation of the world. I imagine you refer to this as the "hidden" will of God or something similar. If this will is hidden how can we pray in confidence according to the will of God as in 1 Jn 5:14-15?
The only way out of this conundrum, as I see it, is that you must have a different view of "faith". I was simply wondering what that might be?

 

[Eddie L]

Maybe, but you didn't answer my question.

I notice that you are the only one who has engaged me so far. Do you all take shifts or something?

Maybe you feel that you take the "orthodox" position and therefore any statement is redundant. If so there should be plenty of web links that you can direct me to. Feel free

I just don't understand why you're assuming that there is some odd characteristic of faith that we would have as Calvinists. Faith is the conduit that God establishes in believers so that He can have a relationship with them. Believers interact with God via the vehicle of faith. We can't have an intimate relationship with God in Christ without it. Our trust of Him, in the righteousness of Christ as our own, in believing that He loves and forgives us, in knowing that His providence is for our good, and in anything else that would make us who we are as people is a constant need. That need never ends.

 

[splat]

I just don't understand why you're assuming that there is some odd characteristic of faith that we would have as Calvinists. Faith is the conduit that God establishes in believers so that He can have a relationship with them. Believers interact with God via the vehicle of faith. We can't have an intimate relationship with God in Christ without it. Our trust of Him, in the righteousness of Christ as our own, in believing that He loves and forgives us, in knowing that His providence is for our good, ...

Ok, to the point. You could say, for instance, that you have faith in God to save the elect. How do you know, for instance, that you are one of the elect? What do you base it on? How do you know your faith is real? What does your faith look like? On the day of reckoning does God simply take it on your "say so"?

 

[Eddie L]

Ok, I'll try and clarify. I understand that Calvinists hold to meticulous providence. Therefore that rules out any prayers being answered that were not already answered before the foundation of the world. I imagine you refer to this as the "hidden" will of God or something similar. If this will is hidden how can we pray in confidence according to the will of God as in 1 Jn 5:14-15?
The only way out of this conundrum, as I see it, is that you must have a different view of "faith". I was simply wondering what that might be?

God ordains the means as well as the ends. We pray because we trust Him, and we either want the grace to be at peace in His will, or we are privileged to be made a part of His moving in the lives of others as we pray. We certainly wouldn't beg Him to change His mind about something, because He certainly knows more what we need in our lives than we do, but we can struggle in prayer as we come to understand what His will is, and we can certainly intercede on behalf of others.

I do expect, though, that a Calvinist might pray a little differently than a typical WOF follower, but that's not a function of us believing in Providence.

I've sat in prayer circles containing non-Calvinists, and I've sat in Calvinist circles, and most of the prayers are close to the same. I do note, though, that Calvinists tend to pray for the fruit of the Spirit more and changes in circumstances less. Rather than pray that the person making me angry stops doing what they are, for example, I might pray for the grace to remain patient with them. Again, though, I'm not sure that's due to our belief in Providence. That, I think, is due to our reliance on grace.

 

[Eddie L]

Ok, to the point. You could say, for instance, that you have faith in God to save the elect. How do you know, for instance, that you are one of the elect? What do you base it on? How do you know your faith is real? What does your faith look like? On the day of reckoning does God simply take it on your "say so"?

The presence of a real faith in Jesus and His work on my behalf is my justification to claim Christ. It is the evidence of the Holy Spirit, Whose presence indicates that the promise of God in Christ has fallen on me. If I love God it is because He first loved me, so if I love Jesus I can rest in the promise that God will finish what He started in me.

The more I am ministered to by the Word of God, the more I can come to recognize if my faith is real, but there must be a point that I stop navel-gazing and start keeping my eyes on Christ. If my faith is genuine, as it grows I will trust in what Christ has done for me rather than my feeble attempts to do for myself. That's true in terms of my eternal salvation, but it's also true for success on the job, success as a father, etc. Jesus is my Redeemer in all things, so my emotional need to be a "winner" can diminish greatly as I understand that Jesus really is all I need. As my faith grows in that area, I will get off the treadmill of legalism and start doing the right things for the right reasons. That's how grace works.

You have some very odd ideas about Calvinism. I'm not sure where you've gotten your information, but I can tell you its not a very reliable source.