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Yes, and I highlighted in red.
Jacob 2
23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son. 24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
Uh, these are not things the Mormon Church is doing today.
^^^ So that's why you guys rewrote Romasns 8:30.....
I'm sorry, but I fail to see what you are getting at. Please detail what the difference is that you see between justified and sanctified and why it's so abhorrent to you. I have ideas on that, but I'm interested in what you say in the matter.
If anything, we're more likely to see this mentality held by the "Once Saved, Always Saved" crowd within mainline Christianity.
I've dealt with more than a few OSAS types who, in essence, believed that because they were "saved" it didn't matter what they did with their lives; they already had a ticket to Heaven.
Made it that much easier for them to justify doing all sorts of wickedness in God's name.
If anything, we're more likely to see this mentality held by the "Once Saved, Always Saved" crowd within mainline Christianity.
I've dealt with more than a few OSAS types who, in essence, believed that because they were "saved" it didn't matter what they did with their lives; they already had a ticket to Heaven.
Made it that much easier for them to justify doing all sorts of wickedness in God's name.
Just to be clear, however, we cannot condemn a valid Biblical doctrine just because some people have abused it or misunderstood it. If that were fair, we'd have to condemn most of the teachings of the Bible...because, obviously, we can find some people somewhere who misrepresent or twist those teachings to their benefit.If anything, we're more likely to see this mentality held by the "Once Saved, Always Saved" crowd within mainline Christianity.
I've dealt with more than a few OSAS types who, in essence, believed that because they were "saved" it didn't matter what they did with their lives; they already had a ticket to Heaven.
IvancO: "...Mormonism is a nice ideal, but born out of lot of confusion, the main detractors of Mormonism in the time of Joseph Smith, were the disgusted members of the Mormon church itself."
Response: Christ's church, like the restored gospel, had human members in it. With humanity also comes human mistakes, emotions, bad choices, & the Bible is filled with a lot of confusion, the main detractors of early Christianity in the time of Christ & his apostles, were the disgusted members of Christ's church itself. Accepting our humanity & not expecting everyone to be perfect in this life, is the answers to many polemical arguments that uses a long list of religionists' weaknesses as "evidences" & "reasons why not to believe." Again, listing the "crimes" of Christians is also another Athestic, & early anti-Christian tactic too. So how would modern Christians answer these tactics? (John 6:51-64; Francis Legge, Forerunners And Rivals Of Christianity, (From 330 B.C. TO 330 A.D.), 2 Volumes as 1, (New Hyde Park, New York: University Books, 1964);
Paul Johnson, A History of Christianity, (New York: Atheneum, 1979). W. H. C. Frend: Martyrdom & Persecution In The Early Church, (Garden City, New York: Anchor Books Doubleday & Company, 1967).
Some people affirm that Joseph married already married woman, unfortunately I could not confirm as there is just silence in the church side about polygamy.
Don't forget that a lot of these individuals were folks like Philastus Hurlbut (who was kicked out of the church for misconduct) and Simmonds Ryder (who lost his faith when someone accidentally misspelled his name in an official document).
TBH, you must have dealt with the very few who believed that because Paul is clear in the Bible that you can't do what you want because you believe you are saved. I probably know a lot more Christians than you do, and I don't know anyone who believes that. Real Christians will bear fruit of their changed heart status.
I know we have had this discussion before, but it doesn't surprise me that you continually make reference to this as being something Christians who believe in OSAS believe. If you continue to suggest that we should believe you when you say something, then ISTM that you would believe us when we say something.
Back in the late 1970s, two members of the Christian counter-cult movement became overly bold. One man, D. J. Nelson, challenged everyone to test his academic credentials to prove if he was real or fake. The other man, Walter Martin, declared that "cultists" were every bit as fair game as the message they were delivering.
Unfortunately for the entire movement, the late 1970s / early 1980s represented a cohort shift among LDS apologists. Rather than play defense (as what took place under the Talmage and Nibley cohorts), this cohort wanted to play offense. To them, the words of these two individuals was a call to arms.
To the Christian counter-cult movement, it was the death knell.
Robert and Rosemary Brown decided to investigate D. J. Nelson's credentials, and found that he was a bold-faced liar. His vaunted degree in Egyptology - which he claimed as his basis for criticisms of the LDS faith - was a fraud, purchased from a diploma mill. His supposed field work never happened. Once the Browns published their findings, Nelson's career disintegrated overnight.
But the Browns didn't simply shine a spotlight on one individual. They kicked over a rock and sent all of the insects underneath scurrying.
Martin? His first religious ordination was revoked, and the Browns could find nothing to confirm a subsequent ordination. They also could not evidence to indicate that the college he supposedly got his doctorate in theology from had an accredited doctorate program at the time.
J. Edward Decker? Decker's ex-wife eventually surfaced with her copy of the divorce paperwork. While Decker claims that he had a conversion experience that led him out of the LDS faith, his wife claimed that Decker faced excommunication for a string of extra-marital affairs.
Alberto Rivera? Although Rivera claimed to have fled Spain because the Catholic church was hunting him down, it was discovered that he was actually fleeing an arrest warrant for fraud.
Loftes Tryk? He didn't leave the LDS faith willingly. He was a convicted sex offender who was excommunicated for his crime.
Et cetra.
The 1980s and early 1990s saw many individuals who were luminaries in the world of the Christian counter-cult shot down in flames as background checks of the type called for by Nelson and Martin showed a shameful display of falsehoods and wickedness.
This "background check" approach was eventually re-mated with Nibley-style intensive research into the claims made by these individuals. In the end, it was determined that many of the allegations made by these individuals against various "cults" were false, with some representing overt lies made up by these people.
By the time this period was over, we were looking at Sodom & Gomorrah. Not only were these individuals exposed - often in serious sin - others imploded (such as John Todd, who was convicted of rape and molestation, and Rick Ross, who lost his original ministry over a kidnapping case).
Things got worse for the counter-cult movement in the 1990s, as individuals like FARMS, FAIR, SHIELDS, and Jeff Lindsay from the next cohort began to emerge. Thanks to the internet, these people were able to leave online repositories of facts to counter the allegations made by the counter-cult movement and leave testimonies - including picture galleries - showing the misdeeds and even full-fledged wickedness of the individuals involved in the counter-cult movement.
Cohort 6 represents folks like me who went wild weasel against the counter-cult movement during the early 2000s. A lot of us saw absolutely hideous things in the process, as members of the counter-cult movement found themselves having to deal with Mormons who were bold enough to defend the faith and knowledgeable enough to succeed in doing so. I've been threatened with physical violence. I've been personally targeted by a counter-cult ministry. I had an anti-Mormon minister / author personally insult me in a public forum. I've seen counter-cult members blame Mormonism for a whole host of evils, including various murderers. I even saw an ordained minister sanction spousal abuse as a means for men to keep their wives from becoming Mormon. The worst individuals here don't even come close to the foulness I witnessed originating from the Christian counter-cult back then. But in the end, folks like us served as a shield wall against which the Christian counter-cult broke itself; we humiliated or even took down more than a few individuals back then, ranging from rank-and-file haters to big-name leaders.
We wound up paving the way for cohort 7, the "I'm a Mormon" crowd. As much damage as we did to the Christian counter-cult by delving deeper into its dark underbelly, the charm offensive represented by modern efforts has had the effect of finishing the job. Those members of the Christian counter-cult who haven't been forced to re-evaluate what they're doing have radicalized themselves almost to the point of self-parody. If you don't believe me, try making your way through this, an open letter written by one such self-parodic Christian counter-cult member in response to an independent Protestant church attempting a charm offensive of its own.
So no matter what certain individuals would have you guys believe, as the Mosser-Owen Report warned all the way back in '97, we're winning. And it's in large part because the whole "God's on our side, so whatever we do is just fine!" mentality the Christian counter-cult has seen fit to adopt.
So no matter what certain individuals would have you guys believe, as the Mosser-Owen Report warned all the way back in '97, we're winning. And it's in large part because the whole "God's on our side, so whatever we do is just fine!" mentality the Christian counter-cult has seen fit to adopt.
Back in the late 1970s, two members of the Christian counter-cult movement became overly bold. One man, D. J. Nelson, challenged everyone to test his academic credentials to prove if he was real or fake. The other man, Walter Martin, declared that "cultists" were every bit as fair game as the message they were delivering.
Unfortunately for the entire movement, the late 1970s / early 1980s represented a cohort shift among LDS apologists. Rather than play defense (as what took place under the Talmage and Nibley cohorts), this cohort wanted to play offense. To them, the words of these two individuals was a call to arms.
To the Christian counter-cult movement, it was the death knell.
Robert and Rosemary Brown decided to investigate D. J. Nelson's credentials, and found that he was a bold-faced liar. His vaunted degree in Egyptology - which he claimed as his basis for criticisms of the LDS faith - was a fraud, purchased from a diploma mill. His supposed field work never happened. Once the Browns published their findings, Nelson's career disintegrated overnight.
But the Browns didn't simply shine a spotlight on one individual. They kicked over a rock and sent all of the insects underneath scurrying.
Martin? His first religious ordination was revoked, and the Browns could find nothing to confirm a subsequent ordination. They also could not evidence to indicate that the college he supposedly got his doctorate in theology from had an accredited doctorate program at the time.
J. Edward Decker? Decker's ex-wife eventually surfaced with her copy of the divorce paperwork. While Decker claims that he had a conversion experience that led him out of the LDS faith, his wife claimed that Decker faced excommunication for a string of extra-marital affairs.
Alberto Rivera? Although Rivera claimed to have fled Spain because the Catholic church was hunting him down, it was discovered that he was actually fleeing an arrest warrant for fraud.
Loftes Tryk? He didn't leave the LDS faith willingly. He was a convicted sex offender who was excommunicated for his crime.
Et cetra.
The 1980s and early 1990s saw many individuals who were luminaries in the world of the Christian counter-cult shot down in flames as background checks of the type called for by Nelson and Martin showed a shameful display of falsehoods and wickedness.
This "background check" approach was eventually re-mated with Nibley-style intensive research into the claims made by these individuals. In the end, it was determined that many of the allegations made by these individuals against various "cults" were false, with some representing overt lies made up by these people.
By the time this period was over, we were looking at Sodom & Gomorrah. Not only were these individuals exposed - often in serious sin - others imploded (such as John Todd, who was convicted of rape and molestation, and Rick Ross, who lost his original ministry over a kidnapping case).
Things got worse for the counter-cult movement in the 1990s, as individuals like FARMS, FAIR, SHIELDS, and Jeff Lindsay from the next cohort began to emerge. Thanks to the internet, these people were able to leave online repositories of facts to counter the allegations made by the counter-cult movement and leave testimonies - including picture galleries - showing the misdeeds and even full-fledged wickedness of the individuals involved in the counter-cult movement.
Cohort 6 represents folks like me who went wild weasel against the counter-cult movement during the early 2000s. A lot of us saw absolutely hideous things in the process, as members of the counter-cult movement found themselves having to deal with Mormons who were bold enough to defend the faith and knowledgeable enough to succeed in doing so. I've been threatened with physical violence. I've been personally targeted by a counter-cult ministry. I had an anti-Mormon minister / author personally insult me in a public forum. I've seen counter-cult members blame Mormonism for a whole host of evils, including various murderers. I even saw an ordained minister sanction spousal abuse as a means for men to keep their wives from becoming Mormon. The worst individuals here don't even come close to the foulness I witnessed originating from the Christian counter-cult back then. But in the end, folks like us served as a shield wall against which the Christian counter-cult broke itself; we humiliated or even took down more than a few individuals back then, ranging from rank-and-file haters to big-name leaders.
We wound up paving the way for cohort 7, the "I'm a Mormon" crowd. As much damage as we did to the Christian counter-cult by delving deeper into its dark underbelly, the charm offensive represented by modern efforts has had the effect of finishing the job. Those members of the Christian counter-cult who haven't been forced to re-evaluate what they're doing have radicalized themselves almost to the point of self-parody. If you don't believe me, try making your way through this, an open letter written by one such self-parodic Christian counter-cult member in response to an independent Protestant church attempting a charm offensive of its own.
So no matter what certain individuals would have you guys believe, as the Mosser-Owen Report warned all the way back in '97, we're winning. And it's in large part because the whole "God's on our side, so whatever we do is just fine!" mentality the Christian counter-cult has seen fit to adopt.
However, many people became aware of the meaning of "cult" as used by such people and now are able to discern the difference between a branch of Christianity and a religion that partakes of some of the Christian style or belief while, at the same time, denying one or more essentials of the Christian faith.
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