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"We --- Jews"?? Don't consider Daniel a prophet?? How did that happen?
David was taking care of Jonathan's family members and Saul's as part of a promise he made to Jonathan - the Bible never counts any of Saul's wives as the wives of David nor is there any reference to them being his wife.
When this post is obviously about Mormons, why don't some Mormons answer the questions so we get to know what they actually think?
I work a double-shift on the weekends; I've got the graveyard shift on Thursday and the morning shift on Friday.
Between this, errands, and the basic need to get some sleep, I can be off-line for a good 24+ hours.
Well welcome back to the virtual world. Immerse yourself.
When this post is obviously about Mormons, why don't some Mormons answer the questions so we get to know what they actually think?
I work a double-shift on the weekends; I've got the graveyard shift on Thursday and the morning shift on Friday.
Between this, errands, and the basic need to get some sleep, I can be off-line for a good 24+ hours.
However, it was better than being a physical wreck and on disability as I am now.
If you mean to argue that the slaughter of settlers going to California - as was done by Mormons can be justified in some odd way by Christians since the Christian Bible includes Ex 32:25-28 then you are horribly mistaken. Even the LDS say they have apologized for that - there is no point in Ex 32 where God says "oops -- I acted too hastily -- that was ill-advised".
I'm getting there.
Every time I think about going ahead and finally getting a proper physical, I get the mental image of the doctor coming back to me and asking just how it is I'm still alive.
Bob, in an earlier post, you attempted to side track the issue with the popular anti-Mormon-Atheistic-early to later anti-Christian tactics you borrowed from these earlier critics, by, (as they do), bringing up human weakness & "crimes" done by different religious groups, (in this case earlier Mormons). This tactic is often used to vilify the whole group. If there's some bad apple in the barrel, then all the apples must be bad. All religious groups, including non-religious, have those who do evil things. The 3000 slaughtered by "the word of Moses" the prophet, as done by the Levites, (Ex 32:25-28). This example was one in many used for the purpose of showing how the Bible prophets, which 7th Day Adventists (like Bob Ryan), & Christian-Mormons believe in, wouldn't be able to pass the same types of strick tests that Bob is shooting at Mormons with. Other examples might be ones like: Was Moses meek? Num.12:3 vrs 31. Had Midran been destroyed or not? Num.31:7-17 vrs. Jud. 6:1. How many Benjamites were killed? Judges 20:35 vrs. Jud. 20:46. Had the Amalekites been destroyed or not? 1 Sam. 15:6-8 vrs. 30:1:2. (The intent is not to try to justify what some Mormons have done in the past, such as Mountain Meadows, as distorted by Bob here in his vilification tactic, combined with a shot gun tactic (bringing up numerous issues at once, like a scatter-gun, to get in so many issues, it makes it hard to respond to all of them). Bob's use of these tactics is to be noted here as an attempt to bring in a separate issue, (with reference to Mountain Meadow), that's only a side track off the Solomon Spalding borrowing issue he keeps harping on).
The continual listings of Mormons' weaknesses, (in bringing up long lists of "crimes" claimed to be done by Mormons, as critics like Bob often do, is a vilification tactic, plain & simple). The answer to these types of tactics were given by LDS Apostle, Boyd K. Packer, in his General Conference talk, "Judge Not According to Appearance," April 1979 Conference on Temp. Sq. in SLC Ut. (May 1979 Ensign, p.79-81). He points out that when different members do wrong things, they're acting against the teachings & principles of the Church. And that there are some who seem to want to blame the Church for the different problems that people have. But perhaps in some way we Mormons have brought on some of these charges, because some of us (including myself), do make mistakes, sin, and are in as much need of repentance & Christ's atonement as the next religionists too. As the bible prophets & peoples' actions could be vilified, so also could the vilifiers be too, cause no group, in this mortal life, is made up of purely perfect souls.
What Bob has done here is the same as how the critics (atheists, & "Christian" anti-Mormons & others), will & have done, in jumping at any report, such as Mountain Meadows, & blow them out of proportion, as the horrors & crimes of "the Mormons." While, the slaughter of Mormons as Hawns Mill, the anti-Mormon mob attacks, rapes, burnings, tar & featherings, robbings of properties, & other crimes against Mormons are often not mentioned by critics. Nor are the crimes & murders done by their own fellow critics, often not mentioned too. Atheists like to list the crimes & murders done by religionists, but don't like to mention how Communists-Atheists & other tyrants, have murdered millions of people.
Horror stories contests done, (where different ones contend to see who can come up with the longest lists of horror stories against their rivals), that many different religionists & non-religionists pass back & forth, does not solve the problems. What does is living Christ's like teachings, or at least the golden rule, love, kindness, honesty, respect, tolerance, etc. Those basics, if lived by all, would solve a lot of problems before they get started. But these are not often mentioned as those needing to be done, for the critics in doing these vilification tactics against their rivals, are often done out of meaness & are hypocritical. Bob in brining up Mountain Meadows, hasn't pointed out how his own religionists, 7th Day Adventists, aren't perfect either, how some have also been accused or perhaps done murders & crimes too! Under Bob's tactics, 7th Day Adventists could also be vilified with stories about David Koresh, who "was very convincing to every single one of his followers, but if they had exercised critical thinking skills they would have avoided moving to the Waco compound entirely." A simple search on the internet could also show SDAs, aren't perfect either. The point here is to not be anti-SDAs, but to point out that Bob's use of bringing up shots at Mormons for their weakinesses, past & present, is only a vilification tactic that critical thinking exposes as being only mean spirited here.
HHmmm---Koresh was no SDA, he left, thank God and, unfortunately, took some foolish idiots with him.--and no---we are far from perfect---and whatever wrongs done by anyone, need answers, explanations, and so forth. and just where are all the answers to all the questions I've asked that never get answered.
Tar and featherings were done to many who were thought to be charlatans, not just to Mormons. A lot of "sake oil" conmen were feathered also.
Old testament and new testament prophets do not have to meet any test as they have already been declared prophets of God and it is they who write the word of God--only those outside of the bible, and after the apostles, that we must watch out for. No prophet, no man or woman, written about in the bible was perfect--their indiscretions and foibles were also listed. And it is not a matter of falling, but of lifestyle. Saul didn't just fall---he stayed down. David kept getting up. They are not the ones we need to worry about, just the new ones coming in with no end of stuff that we must, according to scripture, test.
At the same time, though, people like BobRyan tend to be so quick about judging the whole by the individuals that they fail to do proper research into just what happened.
For example, the honest scholarship on Mountain Meadows is that a group of militia used a general panic (caused by the US Army arriving on the basis of a false report) as an excuse to deal with some old grudges. Brigham Young did not even know that there was a problem in Iron County until it was too late for his official instructions to be of any value in preventing bloodshed, and when the government first attempted to investigate in 1859 Young openly expressed willingness to cooperate. Young himself did not know that the militia had lied to him about the circumstances; all he - like most others - knew was that the local Paiute band sought to kill the settlers because they believed that the settlers had sold them tainted meat. He honestly believes that the Paiutes had been the ones to attack the settlers, and that their attack was justified in the Paiutes' eyes.
In this case, it ultimately boils down to a lack of oversight allowing disaster to occur. The church has a whole had no malice towards these settlers beyond the false reports that had been published by the local militia.
Bob, in an earlier post, you attempted to side track the issue with the popular anti-Mormon-Atheistic-early to later anti-Christian tactics you borrowed from these earlier critics, by, (as they do), bringing up human weakness & "crimes" done by different religious groups, (in this case earlier Mormons). This tactic is often used to vilify the whole group. If there's some bad apple in the barrel, then all the apples must be bad. All religious groups, including non-religious, have those who do evil things. The 3000 slaughtered by "the word of Moses" the prophet, as done by the Levites, (Ex 32:25-28). This example was one in many used for the purpose of showing how the Bible prophets, which 7th Day Adventists (like Bob Ryan), & Christian-Mormons believe in, wouldn't be able to pass the same types of strick tests
Other examples might be ones like: Was Moses meek? Num.12:3 vrs 31. Had Midran been destroyed or not? Num.31:7-17 vrs. Jud. 6:1. How many Benjamites were killed? Judges 20:35 vrs. Jud. 20:46. Had the Amalekites been destroyed or not? 1 Sam. 15:6-8 vrs. 30:1:2. (The intent is not to try to justify what some Mormons have done in the past, such as Mountain Meadows,
as distorted by Bob here in his vilification tactic, combined with a shot gun tactic (bringing up numerous issues at once, like a scatter-gun, to get in so many issues, it makes it hard to respond to all of them). Bob's use of these tactics is to be noted here as an attempt to bring in a separate issue,
The continual listings of Mormons' weaknesses, (in bringing up long lists of "crimes" claimed to be done by Mormons, as critics like Bob often do, is a vilification tactic, plain & simple). The answer to these types of tactics were given by LDS Apostle, Boyd K. Packer, in his General Conference talk, "Judge Not According to Appearance," April 1979 Conference on Temp. Sq. in SLC Ut. (May 1979 Ensign, p.79-81).
What Bob has done here is the same as how the critics (atheists, & "Christian" anti-Mormons & others), will & have done, in jumping at any report, such as Mountain Meadows, & blow them out of proportion, as the horrors & crimes of "the Mormons."
While, the slaughter of Mormons as Hawns Mill, the anti-Mormon mob attacks, rapes, burnings, tar & featherings, robbings of properties, & other crimes against Mormons are often not mentioned by critics. Nor are the crimes & murders done by their own fellow critics, often not mentioned too. Atheists like to list the crimes & murders done by religionists, but don't like to mention how Communists-Atheists & other tyrants, have murdered millions of people.
Horror stories contests done,
Bob in brining up Mountain Meadows, hasn't pointed out how his own religionists, 7th Day Adventists, aren't perfect either, how some have also been accused or perhaps done murders & crimes too! Under Bob's tactics, 7th Day Adventists could also be vilified with stories about David Koresh, who "was very convincing to every single one of his followers, but if they had exercised critical thinking skills they would have avoided moving to the Waco compound entirely."
A simple search on the internet could also show SDAs, aren't perfect either. The point here is to not be anti-SDAs, but to point out that Bob's use of bringing up shots at Mormons for their weakinesses, past & present, is only a vilification tactic that critical thinking exposes as being only mean spirited here.
In this post of mine as noted below - I am talking about an event in Mormon history that Mormons have already addressed and apologized for -- so I don't know that I am posting anything in opposition to what the official LDS organization has said about it. I just don't think the Bible should be tossed under the bus to defend something that the LDS church already admits as being wrong.
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QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68119890, member: 235244"]1. I don't think I have made any reference to any story in the BoM and said that because of that story the BoM is false.
2. Your attack on the Bible is therefore premature.
3. If you mean to argue that the slaughter of settlers going to California - as was done by Mormons can be justified in some odd way by Christians since the Christian Bible includes Ex 32:25-28 then you are horribly mistaken. Even the LDS say they have apologized for that - there is no point in Ex 32 where God says "oops -- I acted too hastily -- that was ill-advised".
There is no canibalism in Lev 26 commanded by God - rather there are curses there and condemnation for those who reject the Word of God
Lev 26
15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
.
These statements of plague and curse and horrific death to fall on those in Israel who forsake God - is not "a free pass for Mormons to slaughter settlers" and I think we would all agree to that. (And I don't see it in any way related to anything I have said about the Book of Mormon).
I don't think I am actuated by an atheist spirit simply for the "sin" of "noticing" that history of the actual Mormon massacre of innocent pilgrims on their way to California - and as has already been posted on this thread - even Mormons have admitted that this was wrong of them to do.
Your idea of comparing that to atheists attacking the Bible is misguided. It is equivocation.
As already stated that is flawed - the atheist attack on the Bible is NOT comparable to a non-Mormon admitting to the historic fact of the Mormon's massacre of innocent pilgrims. In your example above you point to atheist complaints about God's condemnation of rebellion against God by his people in Lev 26.
That is totally unrelated to the subject at hand. Your idea that to notice these facts of history that are not complimentary towards the Mormon religion " is inadvertantly attacking the bible" is off base equivocation, because nothing in what I did -- condones their method or their premise. You are mixing apples and oranges
I don't dispute that all denominations are subject to some form of criticism by other denominations. That is a general principle that applies all up and down the street no matter how pure this or that denomination may be that is being accused.
My argument was that because this is Spaulding's work we don't expect to find Mormon doctrine. I would add that because this was before Joseph Smith thought to make up some of his later ideas - even what he adds to Spaulding's material does not contain distinctive Mormon doctrine.
I gave an example of this fact with the doctrine of polygamy - that is even more explicitly condemned in the BoM than in the Bible itself. (And that is not a complaint about the Book of Mormon on my part)
I know of no apologetic for Christianity that relies on all humanity being "pre-existent spirit brothers" that came to earth.
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No Christians to this very argues "God was wrong in Ex 32" to punish Israel for idolatry -- but by contrast even the LDS organization admits that the Mountain Meadows incident was wrong.
I think both Mormons and non-Mormons see this detail.
Then what is your intent?
This thread was not started by me - and the subject title is incredibly broad. I have tried to start a focus on other threads to narrow the subject down to just one or two things.
I don't bring up long lists of complaints.
I don't think there is a nice face that any of us -- Mormon or non-Mormon can put on the massacre of non-Mormons at Mountain Meadows. I would hope we can all agree to that.
I don't argue in favor of atrocities - whether done by Mormons or non-Mormons.
I am hoping we can all agree to that point.
Koresh (Vernon Howell) was Branch Davidian - not Seventh-day Adventist. For example - Catholics cannot be blamed for what Lutherans and Baptists might do. I don't have many affirming things on my list regarding Branch Davidian ideas and don't know of anyone who does.
Should Seventh-day Adventists organize into a state or a nation - then get up an army and massacre some group of people -- I would be among the first to condemn such a thing. I am not trying to setup different rules for different groups.
in Christ,
Bob
OK---let me say this--a part of the problem here is "FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE"----(I've always wanted to say that line)---Thing is, a question is asked--an answer is given--however, the answer ends up bringing up more questions. And then those are not answered. I've Never had my question answered--"Where in scripture does it say that the priesthood is to be reinstated?" I was told about a higher law --what higher law--I was given the golden rule--that says nothing about the priesthood--end result--question never answered--you, however, will claim it has been --
And that is how it goes with other questions. So---maybe, to get to the bottom line, maybe one question could be chewed over until it is totally chewed up, including the questions that the answer gives, (Like how does the golden rule explain the priesthood?)without going off topic- before going to the next question--??--Maybe?? Instead of the whole book, just one thing at a time??
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