What's our motivation?

[Byfaithalone1]

What is adoption?

What does it mean to receive the adoption as sons? Upon my adoption, did I become a truly adopted child who has all of the legal rights of inheritence? Or is my adoption more like a foster parenting relationship, where I could potentially be put back "into the system" if my Father is no longer pleased with me?

What does it mean to be forgiven?

Has God forgiven all of my sins? Does this only include my past sins? Does this only include the ones I've confessed? Or does it also include the ones I don't yet recognized or even the ones I haven't even committed yet? How far does His forgiveness extend? Does His forgiveness extend to us even when we don't know how to pray as we should?

What motivates me to do good?

If I say that I have been adopted and that I have been completely forgiven of all, then does this mean that I have no motivation to do good things . . . to "walk with God?" If I try to good, what motivates me? Am I motivated by a need to do good so I can demonstrate that I deserve my adoption as a son? Am I motivated by love or fear? Am I motivated by a desire to honor the family name (into which I've been adopted) or by a desire to show my Father that I really don't want to be thrown back "into the system?"

My hope for this thread . . .

To those who have been abused by "the system," I hope that this thread will become a place where you can explore your adoption by a Father who loves you and who wants you regardless of any mistakes you've made or will make. Despite what you may have heard, there is no need for you to fear whether you are "safe to save." There is nothing that you can do that will diminish your Father's love for you. He will continue to woo you unto Himself. And with an omnipotent God wooing you, you can be quite sure that nothing will snatch you from your Father's hands. His Spirit has already guaranteed what is to come. You have truly been forgiven of all! You will not be placed back into "the system." Rather, His Spirit will teach you what life is like in the family of God. Everything you need has already been provided for you. You are a beloved child of His! Praise Jesus!

Thoughts?
BFA

 

[Laodicean]

What is adoption?

What does it mean to receive the adoption as sons? Upon my adoption, did I become a truly adopted child who has all of the legal rights of inheritence? Or is my adoption more like a foster parenting relationship, where I could potentially be put back "into the system" if my Father is no longer pleased with me?

When the prodigal son left his father's house, he was still his father's son, except that he was now a "prodigal son," a son separated from his father. If the prodigal son had never chosen to return to his father's house, he would have remained a prodigal son, and would have lost out on the presence and comfort and protection of his father.

So when we are adopted, we are considered to be sons of God. God will never put us away as long as we choose to stay with him or come back to him, while time still lasts. But we can choose to be prodigal, and if we choose to never repent of our prodigality, there will come a time when it will be too late, and God will, at the end of time, have to sadly say, "I know you not."

What does it mean to be forgiven?

Has God forgiven all of my sins? Does this only include my past sins? Does this only include the ones I've confessed? Or does it also include the ones I don't yet recognized or even the ones I haven't even committed yet? How far does His forgiveness extend? Does His forgiveness extend to us even when we don't know how to pray as we should?

I trust that God forgives all my sins, known and unknown, as long as I remain surrendered to Him. As David said, "Who can discern his errors? Forgive my hidden faults. Keep your servant also from willful sins; may they not rule over me." Psalm 19:12, 13

What motivates me to do good

If I say that I have been adopted and that I have been completely forgiven of all, then does this mean that I have no motivation to do good things . . . to "walk with God?" If I try to good, what motivates me? Am I motivated by a need to do good so I can demonstrate that I deserve my adoption as a son? Am I motivated by love or fear? Am I motivated by a desire to honor the family name (into which I've been adopted) or by a desire to show my Father that I really don't want to be thrown back "into the system?"

I can speak only for myself. My motivation for doing good is because I love my Father and want to make Him proud of me. I want Him to know that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was not wasted on me.

My hope for this thread . . .]

To those who have been abused by "the system," I hope that this thread will become a place where you can explore your adoption by a Father who loves you and who wants you regardless of any mistakes you've made or will make. Despite what you may have heard, there is no need for you to fear whether you are "safe to save." There is nothing that you can do that will diminish your Father's love for you. He will continue to woo you unto Himself. And with an omnipotent God wooing you, you can be quite sure that nothing will snatch you from your Father's hands. His Spirit has already guaranteed what is to come. You have truly been forgiven of all! You will not be placed back into "the system." Rather, His Spirit will teach you what life is like in the family of God. Everything you need has already been provided for you. You are a beloved child of His! Praise Jesus!

Thoughts?
BFA

Beautiful thoughts, BFA.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the system," though. My guess is that you mean, the SDA denomination? If so, please know that I don't believe that it is a denomination that will save you. It is possible to not carry the name SDA and still be a Seventh-day Adventist in beliefs.

 

[Soon144k]

Where does Jesus Christ speak of adoption as the process by which we become children of God?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

When the prodigal son left his father's house, he was still his father's son, except that he was now a "prodigal son," a son separated from his father.

Did the prodigal son's actions diminish his inheritence or his access to the Father? Is there any among us who is not a prodigal son?

If the prodigal son had never chosen to return to his father's house, he would have remained a prodigal son, and would have lost out on the presence and comfort and protection of his father.

What was the Father doing while his son was feeding pigs?

So when we are adopted, we are considered to be sons of God. God will never put us away as long as we choose to stay with him or come back to him, while time still lasts.

If we are going to discuss parables, shouldn't we notice that God will never put us away even while we are separated from Him?

But we can choose to be prodigal

Who among us isn't a prodigal?

and if we choose to never repent of our prodigality, there will come a time when it will be too late, and God will, at the end of time, have to sadly say, "I know you not."

Is God willing that any should perish? What steps does He take to reconcile us to Himself?

I trust that God forgives all my sins, known and unknown, as long as I remain surrendered to Him.

Why do you connect surrender to forgiveness? If I have already been forgiven of the known and unknown, then surrender plays no role whatsoever.

I can speak only for myself. My motivation for doing good is because I love my Father and want to make Him proud of me. I want Him to know that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was not wasted on me.

How very sad this is. Adopted children need not worry about wasting their Father's love. Rather, they feel secure in it and never doubt it. It would break my heart if my children worried about wasting my love. I hope they wear it like a warm coat that comforts them whenever they need it. I hope that they never doubt it.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the system," though. My guess is that you mean, the SDA denomination?

I don't think "the system" is limited to SDAism. In my mind, "the system" is an overall mindset that causes people to doubt God's love and forgiveness and their eternal security. "The system" causes us to believe that, if we displease the Father or if we don't clean up our act "in time," God will no longer want us as His adopted children. "The system" is where you go when you are no longer wanted by your adoptive parent.

If so, please know that I don't believe that it is a denomination that will save you.

Perhaps. But there are many SDAs who believe that a person is ineligible for salvation in the last days if s/he fails to live up to the teachings of the SDA denomination -- especially if that person knew the SDA teachings and refused to follow them. For them, it is the beliefs that matter, not the denomination.

Your own statement that "it is possible to not carry the name SDA and still be a Seventh-day Adventist in beliefs" seems to confirm that you place a high premium on the things that people believe and/or whether they line up with the things that you believe. Have I correctly understood?

BFA

 

[k4c]

Byfaithalone1;Did the prodigal son's actions diminish his inheritence or his access to the Father? Is there any among us who is not a prodigal son?

What was the Father doing while his son was feeding pigs?

If we are going to discuss parables, shouldn't we notice that God will never put us away even while we are separated from Him?

Who among us isn't a prodigal?

What was the son's condition while he was in the world?

Luke 15:24 My son was dead, but now he is alive again. He was lost, but now he is found!' So, they began to celebrate.''

Is God willing that any should perish? What steps does He take to reconcile us to Himself?

God does love us but we have to keep ourselves in the love of God.

Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Let's not turn a blind eye to truth.

Romans 2:1-11 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "will render to each one according to his deeds'': eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

Romans 11:16-23 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.'' Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Why do you connect surrender to forgiveness? If I have already been forgiven of the known and unknown, then surrender plays no role whatsoever.

There are no verses in the Bible that say we are automatically forgivin of future sins.

Matthew 6:14-15 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The Bible is clear though that we are forgiven of past sins and have access to the cross for future sins.

2 Peter 1:8-11 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

How very sad this is. Adopted children need not worry about wasting their Father's love. Rather, they feel secure in it and never doubt it. It would break my heart if my children worried about wasting my love. I hope they wear it like a warm coat that comforts them whenever they need it. I hope that they never doubt it.

Adoption is a legal term with legal ramifications.

I don't think "the system" is limited to SDAism. In my mind, "the system" is an overall mindset that causes people to doubt God's love and forgiveness and their eternal security. "The system" causes us to believe that, if we displease the Father or if we don't clean up our act "in time," God will no longer want us as His adopted children. "The system" is where you go when you are no longer wanted by your adoptive parent.

Salvation is a gift that needs to be accedpted by our own free will and cared for because we desire to be with God in His kingdom.

Hebrews 2:1-3 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.

1 John 3:2-3 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

This is not rocket science...

 

[Byfaithalone1]

God does love us but we have to keep ourselves in the love of God.

You wrote this in reply to my questions about God not being willing that any should perish and about God reconciling us unto Himself? What is your position on these matters?

Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jude continues . . . "To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy." After considering the context it seems that we have nothing to fear. This is the benefit of adoption by a sovereign God.

Adoption is a legal term with legal ramifications.

Have you gone through an adoption of a human child? If so, how do you view the things that occurred? Was it merely a legal process or was it so much more than merely a legal process? How does adoption change your life for the decades that follow the legal process? I've adopted two children. Your description of adoption as a legal process does not capture all that adoption has meant to me and my family. I suspect that it also does not fully capture what happens when God adopts us as sons.

Salvation is a gift that needs to be accedpted by our own free will and cared for because we desire to be with God in His kingdom.

How do we "care for" our adoption as sons? Do we have to keep God very happy so He will not consider sending us back into the foster care system? What happens if we sin? We lose our inheritence?

This is not rocket science...

No it is far more important than that.

BFA

 

[Joe67]

The revelation of the Lord God at Mt. Sinai is the revelation of God as an owner of property he created and then delivered from slavery. This is good on God's part. He owns what he creates. It is for his pleasure. He cares for the form of his possession.

The revelation of the Lord God through David and Isaiah is the revelation of God as the Father of our inward man, who planned for us before he gave birth to us. This is the planned parenthood of the everlasting Father. This revelation was made full in Jesus, the Christ, our Lord.

Adoption is for the body. We wait in hope for this at the appearing of our Lord Jesus.

Spiritual birth is for the inward man/the heart and mind. God brings this to pass at this present time by the Spirit and the water. The fruit of the Spirit is for this present hour. Through the Spirit of Jesus, the tree of life is now.

Rom 8:14-16
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: KJV

Gal 4:5-6
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. KJV

The Spirit of adoption in our hearts is now. This is our inner man and those who are thus born of the water and the Spirit do not commit sin, for their seed remains in them in hope of the redemption of the body.

Sin is still in our flesh, but it does not gain dominion over the mind/inner man when the Spirit of Christ is dwelling in the inner man. The law of the Spirit of life that is in Christ Jesus sets our mind/inner man free from the law of sin and death, though the law of sin and death still resides in our flesh and its members.

Rom 8:21-23
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. KJV

We wait and hope for this adoption, the redemption of the body. Without this manifestation of the power of the resurrection we would still be in our sins and we would be of all men most miserable.

Gal 6:17
17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. KJV

Joe

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

I can speak only for myself. My motivation for doing good is because I love my Father and want to make Him proud of me. I want Him to know that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was not wasted on me.
​

How very sad this is. Adopted children need not worry about wasting their Father's love. Rather, they feel secure in it and never doubt it. It would break my heart if my children worried about wasting my love. I hope they wear it like a warm coat that comforts them whenever they need it. I hope that they never doubt it.

I would hope that your adopted children would be concerned about wasting your love. How would you feel if they turned away from you and began to bring shame on your name by murdering or stealing or raping other humans? Or how would you feel if they turned ungrateful and began to accuse you to their friends, claiming that you were untrustworthy and a bad dad? This has happened in the real world, you know.

Yes, our gratitude should be such that we would worry about wasting the love that God has lavished upon us.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I would hope that your adopted children would be concerned about wasting your love.

As their adoptive parent, this is very far removed from the things I hope for them. I hope that they are never concerned about wasting my love.

How would you feel if they turned away from you and began to bring shame on your name by murdering or stealing or raping other humans?

I would be sad, for sure. But there is nothing that my adopted children could do that would reduce the amount of love that I have for them. If my children made such choices, my concern would be for the impact that these choices would have on their life and happiness, not on my own life and happiness. This is the very definition of unconditional love. If I am capable of such emotions, what must our omniscient, adoptive Father feel for us?

Or how would you feel if they turned ungrateful and began to accuse you to their friends, claiming that you were untrustworthy and a bad dad?

This has already happened in a small way. It seems quite possible that -- before they enter the world as adults -- this will probably happen in an even larger way. When it does, it will hurt. But it won't change the amount of love I have for them. I will not be tempted to rescind my parental rights as their adopted father and I will never consider sending them back into "the system."

Yes, our gratitude should be such that we would worry about wasting the love that God has lavished upon us.

If this were true, then we could be quite certain that His love for us is conditioned upon our love for Him. That would be very sad, for there would be no hope for any of us. This is "another gospel." It isn't the gospel of Jesus Christ.

BFA

 

[Laodicean]

Laodicean said: I would hope that your adopted children would be concerned about wasting your love.
​

As their adoptive parent, this is very far removed from the things I hope for them. I hope that they are never concerned about wasting my love.

I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm speaking from the point of view of the child, and you are speaking from the point of view of the parent.

Laodicean: How would you feel if they turned away from you and began to bring shame on your name by murdering or stealing or raping other humans?
​

I would be sad, for sure.

exactly. And from the point of view of the child, I never want to make my Parent sad.

But there is nothing that my adopted children could do that would reduce the amount of love that I have for them. If my children made such choices, my concern would be for the impact that these choices would have on their life and happiness, not on my own life and happiness. This is the very definition of unconditional love. If I am capable of such emotions, what must our omniscient, adoptive Father feel for us?

That is how I feel, too, from the perspective of the parent. However, I was speaking from the point of view of the child. You asked what motivates me (the child) to do good. I answered from the point of view of the child.

Laodicean: Or how would you feel if they turned ungrateful and began to accuse you to their friends, claiming that you were untrustworthy and a bad dad?
​

This has already happened in a small way. It seems quite possible that -- before they enter the world as adults -- this will probably happen in an even larger way. When it does, it will hurt.

And that was the point of my answer. I do not want to bring hurt into God's heart.

But it won't change the amount of love I have for them. I will not be tempted to rescind my parental rights as their adopted father and I will never consider sending them back into "the system." Neither would I. And neither would God.

Laodicean: Yes, our gratitude should be such that we would worry about wasting the love that God has lavished upon us.
​

If this were true, then we could be quite certain that His love for us is conditioned upon our love for Him. That would be very sad, for there would be no hope for any of us. This is "another gospel." It isn't the gospel of Jesus Christ.

BFA

BFA, we are talking at cross purposes here. First, "wasting God's love" has nothing to do with His love being conditional. It means that if I don't respond to His love, if I make Him sad, then I've thrown away His love that He has directed towards me. Wasted it, in other words. It doesn't mean that because I've wasted His love, that He will stop loving me. He continues to love sinners, even if He has to let them go because they want to leave Him.

 

[Princessdi]

What is adoption?

What does it mean to receive the adoption as sons? Upon my adoption, did I become a truly adopted child who has all of the legal rights of inheritence? Or is my adoption more like a foster parenting relationship, where I could potentially be put back "into the system" if my Father is no longer pleased with me?

Well no, I don't believe God will ever put anyone "back into the system". Now my family has been into foster/adoptions/board and care for as long as I can remember. adoption, at least in our family, means full privileges. Even though even our foster care seems to be more like adoptions(in that the kids just didn't leave), there is not the sense of permanance as with adoption.

However, there is one concept with which I have always had trouble. That of us needing adoption. God is Our Father/Creator. If we use the example, the son did not need to be "adopted" upon his return, he was merely welcomed back. Even if we choose to be prodigal, we are still a son (or daughter). We are just separated from our Father by sin. So I don't know if we need another thread or not, but somehwere along the way can someone tell me why we need to be adopted?

What does it mean to be forgiven?

Has God forgiven all of my sins? Does this only include my past sins? Does this only include the ones I've confessed? Or does it also include the ones I don't yet recognized or even the ones I haven't even committed yet? How far does His forgiveness extend? Does His forgiveness extend to us even when we don't know how to pray as we should?

The Bible says, "while we were yet in our sins" Christ died for us. He did that before any of us here were even thought of. He need not do anything else to forgive us. God is not waiting until we confess to figure out if He wants to forgive us. Jesus does not have to plead with Him each time. We ARE forgiven. The question is, do we acknowledge and walk int hat forgiveness.

What motivates me to do good?

If I say that I have been adopted and that I have been completely forgiven of all, then does this mean that I have no motivation to do good things . . . to "walk with God?" If I try to good, what motivates me? Am I motivated by a need to do good so I can demonstrate that I deserve my adoption as a son? Am I motivated by love or fear? Am I motivated by a desire to honor the family name (into which I've been adopted) or by a desire to show my Father that I really don't want to be thrown back "into the system?"


Our motivation should be what God truly wants, which is a relationship with us. We "do good" in order to honor that relationship. We do it for all relationships we treasure or at least want to continue. We act in a way to please the other, even doing somethings we don't particular like, but it pleases the other person. And we do them not begrudgingly but with joy and excitement often times, not fear that we will be rejected

I think David is a good example where we can safely say that God never considered Himself, out of relationship with David, in spite of ALL of David's offenses to God's law and His will. God is definitely not sitting in Heaven waiting to strike us, disown us, with every offense. We can also apply the example of the Prodigal's father or any parent.

There is also a way of conducting ourselves, especially in romantic relationships/marriages. We can all tell when a husband or wife is not honoring the vows of their marriage by their actions, the way they carry themselves. We should see a marked difference fromt he way they carried themselves while single. It should be the same with our relationship with God. When we chose to akcnowledge it, it should be apparent to others in our actions.

.....just some of my thoughts........


My hope for this thread . . .

To those who have been abused by "the system," I hope that this thread will become a place where you can explore your adoption by a Father who loves you and who wants you regardless of any mistakes you've made or will make. Despite what you may have heard, there is no need for you to fear whether you are "safe to save." There is nothing that you can do that will diminish your Father's love for you. He will continue to woo you unto Himself. And with an omnipotent God wooing you, you can be quite sure that nothing will snatch you from your Father's hands. His Spirit has already guaranteed what is to come. You have truly been forgiven of all! You will not be placed back into "the system." Rather, His Spirit will teach you what life is like in the family of God. Everything you need has already been provided for you. You are a beloved child of His! Praise Jesus!

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Well no, I don't believe God will ever put anyone "back into the system".

I agree. Thank you for sharing your experience.

However, there is one concept with which I have always had trouble. That of us needing adoption. God is Our Father/Creator. If we use the example, the son did not need to be "adopted" upon his return, he was merely welcomed back. Even if we choose to be prodigal, we are still a son (or daughter). We are just separated from our Father by sin. So I don't know if we need another thread or not, but somehwere along the way can someone tell me why we need to be adopted?

Here's how I understand it:

2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
15For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints,
16do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers;
17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
18I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

​

Jesus Christ is divine and is God's Son. I am not divine; I am mortal and created. My access to sonship is through adoption.

The Bible says, "while we were yet in our sins" Christ died for us. He did that before any of us here were even thought of. He need not do anything else to forgive us. God is not waiting until we confess to figure out if He wants to forgive us. Jesus does not have to plead with Him each time. We ARE forgiven. The question is, do we acknowledge and walk int hat forgiveness.

I think we agree. Let me check my understanding. If I forgive my daughter, she may continue to carry around guilt. Her guilt does not make void my forgiveness. The only downside to ignoring God's forgiveness is the price we pay for continuing to carry needless guilt.

Our motivation should be what God truly wants, which is a relationship with us. We "do good" in order to honor that relationship. We do it for all relationships we treasure or at least want to continue. We act in a way to please the other, even doing somethings we don't particular like, but it pleases the other person. And we do them not begrudgingly but with joy and excitement often times, not fear that we will be rejected

I agree and your final sentence is particularly important (see the bolded section). We also should not do good things because we're afraid of wasting God's love.

.....just some of my thoughts........

Thanks for sharing. You've offered a lot of food for thought.


BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Laodicean said: I would hope that your adopted children would be concerned about wasting your love.
​

I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm speaking from the point of view of the child, and you are speaking from the point of view of the parent.

Laodicean: How would you feel if they turned away from you and began to bring shame on your name by murdering or stealing or raping other humans?
​

exactly. And from the point of view of the child, I never want to make my Parent sad.



That is how I feel, too, from the perspective of the parent. However, I was speaking from the point of view of the child. You asked what motivates me (the child) to do good. I answered from the point of view of the child.

Laodicean: Or how would you feel if they turned ungrateful and began to accuse you to their friends, claiming that you were untrustworthy and a bad dad?
​

And that was the point of my answer. I do not want to bring hurt into God's heart.

Laodicean: Yes, our gratitude should be such that we would worry about wasting the love that God has lavished upon us.
​

BFA, we are talking at cross purposes here. First, "wasting God's love" has nothing to do with His love being conditional. It means that if I don't respond to His love, if I make Him sad, then I've thrown away His love that He has directed towards me. Wasted it, in other words. It doesn't mean that because I've wasted His love, that He will stop loving me. He continues to love sinners, even if He has to let them go because they want to leave Him.

We may understand one another better than we think.

Here are my thoughts about the child's perspective:

If my father is not negatively impacted if I waste his love -- and if my father would prefer that I surround myself with his love and never doubt it -- then it would be silly if I weighed myself down with guilt and fear, worrying about whether I have wasted his love. My father doesn't want me to do so and nothing good results from it.
​

Now, your comments in past posts looked at this issue not only from the child's perspective but also from the parent's perspective. Therefore, it seems reasonable that I would consider the subject from the adoptive parent's perspective as well (especially since this is the very topic of this thread). For example, you wrote:

I would hope that your adopted children would be concerned about wasting your love. How would you [the parent] feel if they turned ungrateful and began to accuse you to their friends, claiming that you were untrustworthy and a bad dad?
​

We agree that children can be emancipated, but this is hardly an easy thing to do. And, before a child can be enancipated, a third party has to approve it. That third party is often far less than motivated to agree to the emancipation. Clearly, the prodigal son was never emancipated. There is more involved in emancipation than day-to-day sin, or even running away.

BFA

 

[Joe67]

Rom 8:12-21
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. KJV
Rom 8:22-23
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. KJV

We who groan within ourselves, let us wait for the adoption of the body.

If the body is not adopted (resurrection) then our faith is vain and we are still in our sins.

Let us not deny the earnest of the inheritance and its victory over the wicked one and the ceasing from sin as we minister to the weak saints, while waiting for the hope of righteousness.

Gal 5:5
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. KJV

Joe

 

[Soon144k]

Jesus Christ NEVER spoke of becoming a member of the Family of God by adoption; first we become members of the Kingdom of Heaven-this allows the Holy Spirit to work with us through the process of sanctification to remove the lies which we believed to be true and replace those lies with the TRUTH, this happens by abiding in the words and teachings of Jesus Christ and no one else: next we become members of the Family of God by becoming 'BORN AGAIN', not of the flesh but of the Spirit of Truth-this birth is given us by the same Mother that gave birth to Jesus Christ, see ref. Rev. 12.

Does it say anything to you that Jesus did not speak of adoption as the process of becoming a member of the Family of God, that is was Paul who said adoption is the pathway by which we accomplish this? Either Jesus Christ was correct or Paul was correct; it cannot be both. I for one will go with what Jesus Christ said.

 

[Joe67]

Jesus Christ NEVER spoke of becoming a member of the Family of God by adoption; first we become members of the Kingdom of Heaven-this allows the Holy Spirit to work with us through the process of sanctification to remove the lies which we believed to be true and replace those lies with the TRUTH, this happens by abiding in the words and teachings of Jesus Christ and no one else: next we become members of the Family of God by becoming 'BORN AGAIN', not of the flesh but of the Spirit of Truth-this birth is given us by the same Mother that gave birth to Jesus Christ, see ref. Rev. 12.

Does it say anything to you that Jesus did not speak of adoption as the process of becoming a member of the Family of God, that is was Paul who said adoption is the pathway by which we accomplish this? Either Jesus Christ was correct or Paul was correct; it cannot be both. I for one will go with what Jesus Christ said.

Soon144,

When you are adopted you are called by a new name, you are called (by a judgment) something that in your nature you are not.

Luke 21:36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. KJV

Joe

 

[Soon144k]

The problem with what Luke wrote is that Jesus again never said you are to be 'accounted' worth, He said you must become worthy.

And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” Rev.5:9-10.

Here, after an exhaustive search, Jesus is found worth to open the scroll, this for the purpose of purchasing a Kingdom AND priests to God, and together they shall reign on the earth. The Kingdom that does this is not 'accounted' that is 'granted' or 'gifted' as worthy they, as their King before them, have been 'found' worthy, and as such they rule with Jesus.

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. Rev.3:21.

The people that rule with Jesus Christ on His throne do so because they have conquered the same thing that He has. They have earned the right by their actions to do this; a 'right' is not a gift, and cannot be denied them. The new name they are given is because they have overcome sin and their nature has been changed to reflect that righteousness.

These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless. Rev.14:4-5.

And not only this, but these people (this Kingdom) has not only not escaped the things that 'shall come to pass' but they have willingly gone through them and faced them so that they would have the opportunity to overcome them and defeat them, as did their King.

Luke is incorrect in this, among other things, because he got his information about this not from Jesus Christ personally (he never met Jesus), or from the eyewitness disciples of Jesus, but from Paul (who also never met Jesus in the flesh). Because of this Luke's gospel reflects the incorrect understanding of Paul as to the nature of salvation and how salvation really works, as is shown in the verse you quoted.

 

[Princessdi]

Ok, so adoption. This is one of those concepts of the christianity with which i struggle. I always ask the question why adoption is necessary, if God is Creator and Redeemer of humanity.

Also, I find it a bit problematic to say that God will neer put us away, but it is our job to stay within His love. It might just be semantics, but we always have His love. He has already done the most He can do for us in the name of His love.

Passage Romans 8:35-39:


35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The Prodigal Son, was not "prodigal" to his father who was looking for him everyday. Remember, he saw him coming from a long way away. He was looking for him, he was his "son", not at all defined by his sins or shortcomings.

Now that having been said, did he blow his inheritance? You betcha! God's love never, ever, saves us from the natural consequences of our sins. They are built in, which is why we are warned against them.

So, again, my question, why do we need adoption?

 

[Soon144k]

Princessdi,
In spite of what you have been taught and what you may now believe you cannot gain entry into the Kingdom of Heaven and eventually enter into the Family of God through adoption as taught by Paul. To accomplish this you must be born of the water and the Spirit as Jesus taught in John 3:3,5 before you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven; and then you must be sanctified in the truth by the same Mother as gave birth to Jesus Christ as seen in Rev.12:5, and become the offspring of this same Woman just as Jesus Christ is, as seen in Rev. 12:17. If you want to become a Family member of God you must have the same lineage (parents) as Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit (Mother). That is the only way to become a brother or sister of Jesus Christ, and be able to share His throne with Him as He shares His Father's throne (Rev. 3:21).

This may be a new thought to you but it is the truth as given by Jesus Christ.

 

[Princessdi]

That is indeed new, and different, I might add.......