What's it take to be a Messianic?

visionary said:

Yep.. even in the definition acceptable among many Messianic Judaism congregation, it has taken on the definition from Mount Sinai.. rather than from the Jews.

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Messianic Judaism was named because the original people were Jewish and it was saying the Judaism with the Messiah is and should be the religion of the Jewish people.

The definition from Mt. Sinai, would only be that the Jewish people became a nation with a covenant. However, the term Jewish, comes from a transliteration of the term used for the children of Israel by the Babylonians.

Qnts2 said:

Since two people have said the 'Judaism' in the label Messianic Judaism represents the Torah observant lifestyle.

That to me is a change in the standard generally accepted definition of Judaism.

Judaism means the religion of the Jewish people. In the U.S., Reform Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism, and Orthodox Judaism are all Judaisms. They are all Judaisms as they are all the religion of the Jewish people.

Based on your definition, Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Judaism is not Judaism, so the majority of Jewish people in the U.S. are not practicing the Jewish religion?

Sorry all, I don't think you can or should try to redefine Judaism.

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I disagree, reform, conservative and reconstructionist are still considered Judaism, just because they do not adhere in some areas to the same traditions or level of observance of Orthodox, does not mean they are no longer a religion based on a Torah observant lifestyle.

I'm confused...

xDenax said:

I'm confused...

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Lol...

Bradley S said:

Besides, my ancestry is Jewish, and if I am speaking to a Jew, the title MJ will automatically register as "Evangelical Christian", and I'm not that either.

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Maybe on the street, but here that's not the case. If you want to discuss as a Jew who believes in Yeshua, then you get a torah scroll. Otherwise, as stated above, you can only fellowship or ask questions. And that's why Chava is asking her question. She wants to find out just what makes us tick. And BTW welcome.

I suppose the only prerequisite is to believe Y'shua is haNavi, and then to honor haShem by keeping the mitzvot. Hope this helps,

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Couldn't have said it better. The rest is just commentary.

etZion said:

I disagree, reform, conservative and reconstructionist are still considered Judaism, just because they do not adhere in some areas to the same traditions or level of observance of Orthodox, does not mean they are no longer a religion based on a Torah observant lifestyle.

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Ok, so Reform Judaism does qualify as Judaism to you even though Reform Jews are not observant.

So what you are saying is the Judaism in Messianic Judaism, is a 'religion' which is Torah based, not Torah observant. But that also present a problem as Messianic Judaism believes the New Testament is the words of God, and the Tenakh and New Testament are actually one book. For the sake of a label, lets call the Tenakh and NT combined, the bible. Messianic Judaism is actually bible based.

Qnts2 said:

Ok, so Reform Judaism does qualify as Judaism to you even though Reform Jews are not observant.

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Observant in a liberal way, . Just as there are Messianics that are more Christian than anything, they would fit well in reform.

So what you are saying is the Judaism in Messianic Judaism, is a 'religion' which is Torah based, not Torah observant. But that also present a problem as Messianic Judaism believes the New Testament is the words of God, and the Tenakh and New Testament are actually one book. For the sake of a label, lets call the Tenakh and NT combined, the bible. Messianic Judaism is actually bible based.

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Sure, but the Torah is not in conflict with the Apostolic writings, so there is no issue. I have no problem saying Bible based. But ultimately who cares what we say, at the end of the day, it is only a title, people often forget that... Take for example, the question of "who is a Jew"? Even in Judaism that is a big confused mess of hot steamy trash.

ChavaK said:

Depends on who you ask

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Exactly, and that is the same case here, no is going to solve it, it is just dependent on who you ask.

etZion said:

Observant in a liberal way, . Just as there are Messianics that are more Christian than anything, they would fit well in reform.



Sure, but the Torah is not in conflict with the Apostolic writings, so there is no issue. I have no problem saying Bible based. But ultimately who cares what we say, at the end of the day, it is only a title, people often forget that... Take for example, the question of "who is a Jew"? Even in Judaism that is a big confused mess of hot steamy trash.

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While that question, who is a Jew, has been batted around in Judaism, I personally don't find it a difficult question.

A Jew is a person who has a Jewish mother, or has converted.

What are the variations?
1. Some will say a Jewish father plus the child is raised as a Jew, counts the child as Jewish. (Reform)
2. Some will say conversion has to be thru an authorized Bet Din, (Orthodox and Israel).

Since variation 1 is Reform and they include the stipulation of raised as a Jew, Reform basically recognizes the child of a Jewish mother, with a certain exception.

Variation 2 has created some issues. Especially in Israel. That is a mess and messy, as children raised Jewish their entire lives, and view themselves as Jewish, have the right of return, but are not considered Jewish in other important areas.

Not that long ago, a person who was raised Jewish, whose mother was not Jewish or converted Reform, had accepted Jesus. Israel denied the right of return because they were a Jewish person who believed on Jesus. Yet, if this person had not believed on Jesus, and applied for the right of return, they would have been granted the right of return but not as a Jewish person. This was taken to court as it was contradictory. On one side, they were being rejected as a Messianic Jew but on the otherside, they would not have been considered Jewish to start with. The court ruled the person had a right of return as a person who believed on Jesus and had a Jewish parent but not Jewish.

ChavaK said:

I think a couple of people filed suit for the same reason. They had Jewish fathers but not Jewish mothers and therefore were not considered Jewish.
However, Israel was refusing them to make aliyah because they believed in Jesus even though according to the LOR they were eligible. It made no sense because Israel was denying them entry because they were Messianic, where they would have admitted a non-Messianic Christian with the same background. Israel was forced by the courts to allow them aliyah and not allowed to discriminate against them as Messianic Gentiles.
The LOR is nutty in my opinion and needs an overhaul.

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I definitely agree. The LOR needs an overhaul.

ChavaK said:

Another thread got derailed (big surprise!) and one of the underlying thoughts was what does it take to be a Messianic? What should one
do to differentiate it from Christianity?

In other words, what would most here consider the minimum one must
do to be considered Messianic?

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Try your very best to fill an awful big pair of sandals.

14!!! Your husband must be very tall! 6.5, 6.6?

Anyway, glad this 'subject' has it's own thread, hopefully all posts about this can stay here.

I know there has been much division on why this forum is called 'Messianic Judaism'.

People come in here to ask about what it is, people come in here to tell us we're wrong, of late we have an 'expert' on MJ that seems to have only joined this forum to show everyone and all that we are not MJ.

Well, some background on this forum. It was started by a person that wishes to remain nameless. That person had a love for the Jewish people. That person attended a MJ congregation. That person spoke to the then owner of this site and asked that a forum be created for those of like minds. The owner was very eager to do so. Even though this forum brought a lot of problems among other believers, and staff, it prevailed and not without it's battle scars.

I can't count how many times someone or another has posted 'why don't you change the name', or 'Why do you call yourself Judaism?'. Because this is the most familiar name that people can relate to.

However this forum is not a part of MJAA, or UMJC, or any other MJ organization. To constantly post up their beliefs as ours has been detrimental. I have been on these forums since only a few months after 9/11/01. I have seen many come and go and can say I am very familiar with those who are looking for a particular thing. And it doesn't fit the MJAA or any of the other organizations 'mold'.

As stated in many threads recently, MJ was an alternative to Jews coming to Jesus that didn't want to change from being a Jew and entering a Gentile church. This allowed them to still continue keeping Sabbath, eating kosher if they choose to, and keeping the feasts and festivals of Judaism.

The problem is that the group that stay here the longest are not those that want that. What they come here for is something else. MJ is on the right track but it got derailed. What those that come here I believe are searching for is not to practice today's Judaism with a side of Jesus. But rather to walk as He walked in the 1st century.

Sure they try different things to get to that closer way and many times it looks silly to Jews, both Messianic and Traditional. They want to keep their traditions, such as Tallit, kippot, bar mitzvah, etc. I don't think it's so much about imitation as trying to understand Hebrew culture.

But it is more 'hard core' Biblically based.

But all the problems that I see, at least on this forum is over the name, over the Judaism.

So I got to thinking, what could be a more appropriate name for the beliefs I've seen here? Defiantly need to take out the Judaism and I think that would cut down the reportable problems by at least 50% if not more. There are so many 'fringe groups' or replacement groups, that we don't want to get lumped in with them.

I thought and thought and came up with this name.

Messianic Israelism

It is not Judaism, Judaism was not what was at the foot of Mt Sinai. And this is what I believe most here want. It was Israel and those who choose to join her that stood at the foot of the mountain and said, 'All you say, we will do'.

Sadly there is the British Israelism.

So what is an 'ism'? This is a suffix that is attached to a word to show the action of the thing. Judah - ism. This is the practice of Judah, or Jews.

So this 'ism' needs to be attached to a word describing what we believe.

Messianic Isrealism would show that we practice what the original group of believers, that first group, believed and practiced.

However I've found by a quick search that someone else is using that name to describe pretty much the same thing, and this is what they believe:

Messianic Israelism is a term which denotes an expression of five core truths which motivate its adherents to embrace authentic Biblical faith. These truths include the following:

1. There exists a personal creator-sustainer-designer of the physical world.

2. YHVH is the personal creator-sustainer-designer of the physical world, and He exists as described in the Tanach and Messianic Scriptures.

3. Israel is YHVH's family.

4. Yeshua is Israel's Savior and Messiah.

5. Torah obedience is the proper manifestation of New Covenant faith.

Thus, Messianic Israelism is theistic, creationist, and Biblical. "YHVH" denotes the self-revealed name of God in the Tanach ("Old Testament"). The Messianic Scriptures ("New Testament") and Tanach are jointly taken to constitute the divinely inspired and authoritative Biblical Scriptures. The covenants of promise between YHVH and the family of living Israel reveal the divine ideal purpose to bless all nations through that family, and to bring individual and corporate salvation through Yeshua ("Jesus"), Israel's Savior and Messiah, whose gracious initiation of the New Covenant brings the promise of forgiveness of sins to the faithful, and facilitates the blessings of Torah obedience in sanctification directed by the Holy Spirit.

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Perhaps that is the way to go?