Whatever Happened to Forever?

HARK! · Apr 29, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Jesus was fringe too as well as 100% of the prophets of God.

OK, well let's see the fringe evidence which disproves the vast majority of scholars. I haven't invested the time to see what this fringe minority reports.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 29, 2020

HARK! said:
So you would agree that Yahshua's example defines obedience?

If you cannot name what his obedience is, it’s doubtful you do it.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 29, 2020

HARK! said:
OK, well let's see the fringe evidence which disproves the vast majority of scholars. I haven't invested the time to see what this fringe minority reports.

If that’s your attitude, you don’t know but are sure it’s wrong, what’s the point?

HARK! · Apr 29, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
I asked you what obedient deeds of Jesus you do and this is your answer? Do you even know what obedience Jesus did?

I believe that you are mistaken. Can you show me where I said that?

Dorothy Mae · Apr 29, 2020

HARK! said:
What does this have to do with obedience to YHWH's word? I'm sure there is a connection; but please explain this connection; as you introduced it to the discussion.

You said you do obedience as the son of God did. That’s a high claim. I asked in what form to see if you know what that means. You danced around it. I asked if you do the actual deeds he did and you don’t see any connection. If you really do the same obedience he did, you’d know what that obedience looks like in a life.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 29, 2020

HARK! said:
You would challenge the historians too?

This sounds sensational! Let's see your evidence.

You don’t think it’s true and haven’t thought it worth looking into. Why do you think later? Or do you just trust the majority?

HARK! · Apr 29, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
If you cannot name what his obedience is, it’s doubtful you do it.

I already stated that Yahshua's example defines obedience. Wouldn't you agree?

HARK! · Apr 29, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
If that’s your attitude, you don’t know but are sure it’s wrong, what’s the point?

I don't understand why anyone would make assertions that he wouldn't be willing to back up with facts.

HARK! · Apr 29, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
You said you do obedience as the son of God did.

No I didn't. I do look to his example and ask YHWH to give me the strength to do his will, rather than ignore Yahshua's example in the name of grace, wonderful grace.

HARK! · Apr 29, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
You don’t think it’s true and haven’t thought it worth looking into. Why do you think later? Or do you just trust the majority?

This isn't about me. This is about the evidence.

I'm still waiting to see the evidence.

Jan001 · Apr 29, 2020

visionary said:
70 AD Jerusalem down... 80-90 AD Revelation written.... that doesn't work

Actually the Book of Revelation was written in the 60s A.D.

Revelation 11:1-2
Then I (John) was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.

The temple in Jerusalem was still standing when this Book was written. John was told to, "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there." John could not have measured "the temple and the altar and those who worship there" if the temple had already been destroyed.

The Roman army which was comprised of men from the many nations in the Roman Empire, did indeed "trample over the holy city Jerusalem for 42 months", until it was completely destroyed in 70 A.D.

Jan001 · Apr 29, 2020

HARK! said:
Exodus 31
12 YHWH said to Moshe, 13 Tell the people of Isra’el, ‘You are to observe my Shabbats; for this is a sign between me and you through all your generations; so that you will know that I am YHWH, who sets you apart for me. 17 It is a sign between me and the people of Isra’el forever; for in six days ADONAI made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he stopped working and rested.’

SHABBAT SHALOM!

"Forever" can also be a figurative idiom which means "for a long time".

1 Samuel 1:22
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, “I will not go up until the child (Samuel) is weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord and there abide for ever.”

We do know that Samuel is not abiding there presently (he is deceased) and so it is factual to say that "forever" or "for ever" does not always mean what you think it means.

1 Kings 9:1-3
When Solomon had finished building the house of the Lord and the king’s house and all that Solomon desired to build, 2 the Lord appeared to Solomon a second time, as he had appeared to him at Gibeon. 3 The Lord said to him, ‘I have heard your prayer and your plea, which you made before me; I have consecrated this house that you have built, and put my name there for ever; my eyes and my heart will be there for all time.

Solomon's Temple (the house of the Lord) is no longer there in Jerusalem so it seems to me that "for ever" means "for a long time".

ewq1938 · Apr 29, 2020

Strong in Him · Apr 29, 2020

HARK! said:
So you would assert that this was Paul's decision and not Timothy's

It's likely that Timothy consented, rather than being held down and forced.
But Scripture just says that Paul had him circumcised.

Strong in Him · Apr 29, 2020

HARK! said:
Timothy had been a Gentile.

But that doesn't mean that all Gentile men, from that time onwards and today, have to be circumcised.
It's not an order, nor a blueprint.

HARK! · Apr 29, 2020

Jan001 said:
"Forever" can also be a figurative idiom which means "for a long time".

Well we could twist anything into an idiom and we could make the Bible say whatever suits our lusts.

Considering all of the supporting scripture for the sabbath now, and in the kingdom to come; you have to jump through a lot of hoops to get around it.

(CLV) Hb 4:8
For if Joshua causes them to stop, He would not have spoken concerning another day after these things.

(CLV) Hb 4:9
Consequently a sabbatism is left for the people of God.

(CLV) Hb 4:10
For he who is entering into His stopping, he also stops from his works even as God from His own.

(CLV) Hb 4:11
We should be endeavoring, then, to be entering into that stopping, lest anyone should be falling into the same example of stubbornness.

(CLV) Ex 31:16
Hence the sons of Israel will keep the sabbath so as to make the sabbath an eonian covenant throughout their generations.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

(CLV) Isa 66:23
And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh.

HARK! · Apr 29, 2020

Strong in Him said:
It's likely that Timothy consented, rather than being held down and forced.
But Scripture just says that Paul had him circumcised.

That's not exactly what scripture says.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that after what happened in Galatia, regarding people who want to put the cart before the horse,( in other words, the fruit of faith before the faith) then Paul travels all the way to Jerusalem to settle it. James, brother of Yahshua, and leader of the early believers settles the matter. He says that it is wrong to put this yoke on new believers. After all Abraham came to faith first before he showed the outward sign. He was 99 years cold when he circumcised. It's much like Baptism, thew outward sign means nothing, unless the change has taken place within. So any waste, Paul leaves the meeting aftre James settles it, and then Paul does exactly what he admonished while he was still in Galatia?!?! Come on! Timothy was about to start hi ministry. You cant very well minister to those who have taken more steps in their walk in faith than you. I believe that Timothy was ready to take the next step in his walk with Messiah. I don't believe that Paul was a hypocrite.

HARK! · Apr 29, 2020

Strong in Him said:
But that doesn't mean that all Gentile men, from that time onwards and today, have to be circumcised.
It's not an order, nor a blueprint.

No more than they need to be Baptized; but even Yahshua was Baptized.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

Jan001 · Apr 29, 2020

HARK! said:
Well we could twist anything into an idiom and we could make the Bible say whatever suits our lusts.

My answer was not about "whatever suits our lusts".

My answer was simply to show to you a couple of examples that "forever" and "for ever" do not always mean "never-ending". I actually needed to show just one example in order to prove that your adamant interpretation of "forever" is not always correct.

HARK! said: Considering all of the supporting scripture for the sabbath now, and in the kingdom to come; you have to jump through a lot of hoops to get around it.

(CLV) Hb 4:8
For if Joshua causes them to stop, He would not have spoken concerning another day after these things.

(CLV) Hb 4:9
Consequently a sabbatism is left for the people of God.

(CLV) Hb 4:10
For he who is entering into His stopping, he also stops from his works even as God from His own.

(CLV) Hb 4:11
We should be endeavoring, then, to be entering into that stopping, lest anyone should be falling into the same example of stubbornness.

The writer of Hebrews is foretelling that God's people will have eternal rest from their earthly labors after Jesus' Second Appearing/Coming.

Hebrews 4:9
So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God;

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

HARK! said:
(CLV) Ex 31:16
Hence the sons of Israel will keep the sabbath so as to make the sabbath an eonian covenant throughout their generations.

This was true until Jesus Christ made His new covenant with His shed blood which made the first covenant with its sabbath laws obsolete.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The generations of the Israelites have no significance in the new covenant except that a remnant of them will still be saved before Jesus' second appearing/coming. Romans 9:27-28, Romans 11:3-6

Colossians 3:11
Here there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man, but Christ is all, and in all.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

One body of Christ only, His Church/assembly/ecclesia, religion.
His Church was not meant to be restricted to the Israelites. There aren't any Israelite, Jew, or Greek distinctions in Jesus Christ's Church.

Colossians 3:15
And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body.And be thankful.

Ephesians 2:13-17
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances (Law of Moses), that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near;

Jesus Christ did not command that His followers keep the Sabbath when He was asked, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Mark 10:17-20 Perhaps this was because Jesus' death on the cross would soon make the Sabbath day laws obsolete. Luke 10:25-28

HARK! said:
(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Jesus' ministry was limited to about three years. He, personally, did not have time to preach to all the Israelites and to all the Gentiles. However, Jesus Christ came to save the world, not just the Israelites. Jesus made His new covenant for the whole world, not just the Israelites.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus Christ commissioned His apostles/disciples to preach His gospel to every nation/the world. Matthew 28:18-20, Acts 1:6-9

HARK! said:
(CLV) Isa 66:23
And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh.

There will be no new moons and no sabbath cycle in heaven. There is only "today" in heaven. No yesterdays and no tomorrows in heaven. No past and no future in heaven." No nights and no days in heaven. No weeks, no months, and no years in heaven. There is only "today" in heaven.

Psalm 2:7
I will tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to me, “You are my son, today I have begotten you.

Jan001 · Apr 29, 2020

HARK! said:
That's not exactly what scripture says.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that after what happened in Galatia, regarding people who want to put the cart before the horse,( in other words, the fruit of faith before the faith) then Paul travels all the way to Jerusalem to settle it. James, brother of Yahshua, and leader of the early believers settles the matter. He says that it is wrong to put this yoke on new believers. After all Abraham came to faith first before he showed the outward sign. He was 99 years cold when he circumcised. It's much like Baptism, thew outward sign means nothing, unless the change has taken place within. So any waste, Paul leaves the meeting aftre James settles it, and then Paul does exactly what he admonished while he was still in Galatia?!?! Come on! Timothy was about to start hi ministry. You cant very well minister to those who have taken more steps in their walk in faith than you. I believe that Timothy was ready to take the next step in his walk with Messiah. I don't believe that Paul was a hypocrite.

Non-Christian Jews and Gentiles did not fellowship together.
In order for Timothy to be welcomed into the presence of the non-Christian Jews, Timothy became circumcised. Timothy desired to accompany Paul when he was preaching to the non-Christian Jews and so that is the only reason that he became circumcised. John 4:9, Genesis 43:32

However, Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles did fellowship together. Acts 11:2-3

No Gentile male was ever required to become circumcised in order to become under the new covenant nor was he ever required to become circumcised in order to "remain" or "mature in his walk with his Messiah" under the new covenant. Timothy freely chose to become circumcised in order to help in Paul's ministry to the circumcised unbelieving Jews. Christians are not under the law of Moses and they are not under the first covenant.

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law (of Moses) I became as one under the law—though not being myself under the law —that I might win those under the law.

Please note that Paul states that he is not under the law of Moses and so Paul is also no longer under the first covenant. Paul only acted like a Jew in order to win non-Christian Jews over to Christianity.

1 Corinthians 7:18
Was any one at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was any one at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision.

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

Galatians 6:15
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

There is no "next step" circumcision requirement in a man's "walk with Messiah" in Jesus Christ's Church.

Galatians 2:1-6
Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up by revelation; and I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain. 3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4 But because of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage (circumcision bondage and the law of Moses)— 5 to them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.

Paul was offering a new and better covenant to all the Jews. Their old covenant was made obsolete by Jesus Christ's death on the cross. Hebrews 8:13

Hebrews 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Whatever Happened to Forever?

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Great is thy faithfulness

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