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What you must reject.

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philadiddle

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For someone to be a TE they must reject certain points of views. Namely, that of the literal interpretation of Genesis. Since Genesis is an ancient document written in a different language in a different culture with a different cosmology in mind, it is quite possible that it is not literal. We also know from many other passages in the Bible that it is possible for a verse to contain theological truth while not being literal.

For the YEC the theological rejection is that of the figurative sort. Although most YECs don't take every single passage in the Bible literally, they take Genesis literally, meaning that the same kind of interpretation used in figurative passages is a method rejected by YECs when dealing with Genesis.

But for the YECs, what they must reject to hold onto their point of view doesn't stop at theological interpreations. It extends into almost every field of science. They must reject astronomy, or at least the determined age of the universe from astronomical studies. This is a science based on a lot of math, dealing with distances, speeds, wave lengths etc. It's interesting that you never hear a YEC challenge a calculation in astronomy that doesn't threaten their point of view, but when using the same kind of math to give an old age to the universe, it becomes a threat, and then must be challenged.

YECs reject geology, or at least the geological studies that show the earth is old. This kind of science is based on observation. We observe things happening a certain way in nature and can view similar erosion marks or depositions in the deepest strata and determine age and how it formed. You never hear a YEC challenge a geologist when they try to predict landslides, calculate river deposition, predict settling of a man made island with structures on it, or any other geological issue dealing with the present. However, once the same reasoning is applied to the past and it threatens the YEC point of view, it becomes essential for the YEC to attack it.

And of course, YECs must reject biology, or at least the part that deals with common descent. When a biologist uses evolution to make cures for disease, evolve a new protien, or any other "micro" evolutionary process, there is no challenge from the YEC community. However, once biology discovers things like the human chromosone #2, ERVs, or any other biological evidence for common descent, they must be attacked.

I could go on with other fields of science like paleontology, archeology, and athropology but to avoid making this post too long I'll just mention one more. Marine biology. When studies are done on coral reef and the life in and around them, there is never a challenge. But when the same principals used to study those things are applied to how old the coral reef is, it sets off an alarm for the YEC.

Yes, there are many many things the YEC must reject to hold onto that point of view. It's no wonder they are compared to geocentrists and flat earthers.

One last comment and this is important. God gave us reason to work things out and He gave us the intelligence to study His creation. Our faith and reason shouldn't conflict with each other, but rather, should complement each other. Only the TE view accomplishes this. All the sciences, based on our God given ability to reason and use logic, lead us to believe we evolved, and at the same time TEs can accept all the theological truths of Genesis.
 

philadiddle

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[pedantic] Complement. [/pedantic]
Don't you hate spending a lot of time typing (if you're a slow typer), and then after a few hours of making a post you think is quite well put together all you get is a spelling correction?:p
 
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crawfish

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Don't you hate spending a lot of time typing (if you're a slow typer), and then after a few hours of making a post you think is quite well put together all you get is a spelling correction?:p

Don't you have a spellchecker in your browser? ;)

What you say is absolutely true. Believing in a literal Genesis is the key to this entire argument. YEC/OEC are simply the natural outcomes of trying to justify that point of view.

We can argue all we want about science, this theory or that, this fact or that, etc. etc. etc. and it really won't do us any good. It's not the SCIENCE that's in question.

Honestly, the only thing that will change the YEC's mind is when the evidence becomes far too great to deny. I'm positive they'll find yet another sticking point after that.
 
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The Lady Kate

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Don't you have a spellchecker in your browser? ;)

To be fair, a spellchecker wouldn't have helped, since compliment is a word... Rather like reason saying to faith, "That's a lovely hat you're wearing," and faith responding, "why thank you! And might I say I love those shoes you have on?"

...Somehow, I don't think that's the mental image the OP wanted to suggest.
 
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crawfish

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To be fair, a spellchecker wouldn't have helped, since compliment is a word... Rather like reason saying to faith, "That's a lovely hat you're wearing," and faith responding, "why thank you! And might I say I love those shoes you have on?"

...Somehow, I don't think that's the mental image the OP wanted to suggest.

(I was just kidding...) ;)
 
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gluadys

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Our faith and reason shouldn't conflict with each other, but rather, should complement each other.

I think this can't be said often enough or strongly enough.

One of the curious things I note in conversations with creationists is a very ambivalent attitude toward faith.

On the one hand they challenge us to have "enough faith" to believe the opposite of what the evidence reasonably implies.

On the other hand, when I point to something that can only be accepted on the basis of faith (e.g. the existence of God), they often express amazement that anyone would believe this without a reasonable amount of concrete evidence in its favour. Somehow, faith is now relegated to being less trustworthy than evidence. Yet evidence has already been dismissed as less trustworthy than faith.

I always think of faith as being on a higher level than reason and evidence without being in contradiction to them. Evidence and reason take you as far as it is possible for the human mind to go by nature. Faith takes you by grace beyond the capacity of human nature alone. But that doesn't mean that faith cancels out what has been established by evidence and reason. It transcends nature; it doesn't deny it.
 
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shernren

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Don't you have a spellchecker in your browser? ;)

Firefox 2.0 has an auto-spellchecker in their textboxes. It's awesome, and it does feel really funny to see a little red line appear under every poster's and creationist advocate's name in a post. :p

Butt spell chuckers Kant cache avery error yew make. (Read this poem - warning, many sexual references - for a very convincing demonstration.)

What you say is absolutely true. Believing in a literal Genesis is the key to this entire argument. YEC/OEC are simply the natural outcomes of trying to justify that point of view.

We can argue all we want about science, this theory or that, this fact or that, etc. etc. etc. and it really won't do us any good. It's not the SCIENCE that's in question.

Honestly, the only thing that will change the YEC's mind is when the evidence becomes far too great to deny. I'm positive they'll find yet another sticking point after that.

I don't know about even evidence. It depends what place the science plays. Some people really think that the science validates the message of a literalist Genesis 1 - for those people a preponderance of evidence will change their mind.

But for most creationists, science is just a validator. Their reading AiG and ICR is on the same level as seeing an advertisement saying "Research shows that 78.7% of women who use L'Albe Whitening n' Tightening Cream can hook male supermodel boyfriends!" and subliminally thinking that the claim has some credibility simply because "research" says it and backs it up with a percentage. Society nowadays uses science as an inappropriate validator for almost anything - the irony is that the real validator is the pretty girl in the advertisement yet at the same time they try to convince you that you're not buying it because of good impressions but because of good science.

In the same way, the real validator for creationism in people's minds is often simply tradition and comfortable interpretation. The literal view is something they have been brought up with, and they are loathe to part with it. But they'd never admit it. So they gang together, get half a dozen scientific quirks that just might sound a little more plausible if the universe was a little younger, and say "See? Our beliefs are scientifically supported!"

Scientifically supported indeed. The science is just the makeup on the mindset, a way to fool themselves into thinking they've thought deep and hard about the issue. So presenting evidence often amounts to nothing but wiping off the makeup - which can be a shock, but often a shock that is small enough to cover with yet more impenetrable, ugly makeup.
 
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HypnoToad

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Yes, there are many many things the YEC must reject to hold onto that point of view. It's no wonder they are compared to geocentrists and flat earthers.

One last comment and this is important. God gave us reason to work things out and He gave us the intelligence to study His creation. Our faith and reason shouldn't conflict with each other, but rather, should complement each other. Only the TE view accomplishes this. All the sciences, based on our God given ability to reason and use logic, lead us to believe we evolved, and at the same time TEs can accept all the theological truths of Genesis.
Yeah, 6 24-hr days, young earth, a guy resurrecting after 3 days, ... . YEC's are so, so foolish.
 
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Mallon

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Yeah, 6 24-hr days, young earth, a guy resurrecting after 3 days, ... . YEC's are so, so foolish.
Evolutionary creationists believe in Christ's resurrection, too.
Why?
Because there is no evidence against it.
On the other hand, there IS much evidence against 6-day, young earth creationism.
 
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HypnoToad

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Evolutionary creationists believe in Christ's resurrection, too.
Why?
Because there is no evidence against it.
On the other hand, there IS much evidence against 6-day, young earth creationism.
Really?

No evidence against dead people spontaneously resurrecting after 3 days? Ok.
 
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Mallon

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Really?

No evidence against dead people spontaneously resurrecting after 3 days? Ok.
Yes, there is no evidence that a specific man did not rise from the dead some 2,000 years ago.
There is evidence that a specific global flood or creation event did not occur thousands of year ago.
 
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HypnoToad

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Yes, there is no evidence that a specific man did not rise from the dead some 2,000 years ago.
There's no evidence that the great spaghetti monster doesn't exist, either.

Really, just show the medical studies that demonstrate the possibility of someone spontaneously resurrecting after three days of being dead. This thread is about how great TE's are because they are so in sync with science, so surely TE's who accept the bodily resurrection can show that there's some scientific support for the notion of a spontaneous resurrection.
 
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Mallon

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There's no evidence that the great spaghetti monster doesn't exist, either.
I think you are still missing the point, XianJedi. So I will state it another way:

We know God's creation did not occur over 6 days some 6,000 years ago because His creation is available to us for study. We can verify claims made about it.

We know Noah's flood was not a global one because we have sedimentary rocks from all around the world that contradict such an interpretation. And what we see is not congruent with a global flood.

By contrast, we do not have Jesus' body available to study, and therefore we cannot verify any claims made about it. We believe in the resurrection as a matter of faith -- the way it should be -- not as a matter of science.
 
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shernren

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Cool. I haven't made any hyperlinks back to this thread in ages. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to continue blowing my own horn.

Footprints: or, why creationists who think TEs can't believe in the resurrection are barking up the wrong tree.
 
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laptoppop

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I like your "footprints" post. Very cool.

And, I will admit that the case for <10,000 years and a literal Adam is based more on Scripture than physical evidence. The primary physical evidence that we have supports a global flood more than it supports <10,000 years. There is evidence that goes against ancient earth/universe but it is not nearly as clear as the flood evidence. That being said, TE rests on the same evidence used for the flood, so there is a real problem there -- either the flood was local or non-existent (which disagrees with Scripture) or TE is not true.
 
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