What You Despise The Most

gimlisgrl · Oct 11, 2004

OK what annoys me most........there's a lot! lol but to narrow it down would be faulty christians. Christians who support things that are sinfull ie gay marriage, abortion, pornography etc.
Christians who complain about the world but will not do anything about it. Speak up, speak out, make changes.

The Bellman · Oct 11, 2004

gimlisgrl said:
OK what annoys me most........there's a lot! lol but to narrow it down would be faulty christians. Christians who support things that are sinfull ie gay marriage, abortion, pornography etc.
Christians who complain about the world but will not do anything about it. Speak up, speak out, make changes.

You mean, of course, things that you - a fallible, error-prone human being - believe are sinful, right?

CSMR · Oct 12, 2004

CSMR said:
I may follow my bad feelings about morality which I told you about, but not the true law of God; if anything is clear in my earlier post, it is that my ethics are not very admirable!

seebs said:
Can you clarify this a bit? I'm not sure what you're saying.

My ethics, or what I feel about morality, are far from admirable. They are a feeling, and not true knowledge, which leads to all sort of nonsense: I treat morality as an unpleasant nagger when I do wrong, and often I do right just to avoid this bad feeling. Whereas if I really had the right attitude to morality, I would follow it for its own sake, knowing it to be my true calling, and not for the sake of avoiding guilt-feeling. And when I envy and hate those that seem to live without morality, and even feel that it is unjust that they should be able to live oblivious to it, my attitude to morality is one of hatred, as if I would rather there were no God. And if I console myself that I am more comfortable when I have the idea of God, my attitude, which has comfort as its goal is no better.
Nevertheless while bad these feelings are about morality, and bear witness to the true law, which I know exists, however bad my attitude towards it. I follow my feelings about morality - I follow all sorts of feelings of which it is one. The true law I don't follow. Just the fact that there is a true law shows up my feelings as evil (although they do the good task of pointing to it).
I suppose entering existentialist territory is not much of a clarification!

seebs · Oct 12, 2004

CSMR said:
My ethics, or what I feel about morality, are far from admirable. They are a feeling, and not true knowledge, which leads to all sort of nonsense: I treat morality as an unpleasant nagger when I do wrong, and often I do right just to avoid this bad feeling. Whereas if I really had the right attitude to morality, I would follow it for its own sake, knowing it to be my true calling, and not for the sake of avoiding guilt-feeling.

Hmm. In my experience, sometimes when I merely feel guilty about a thing, without taking joy in the alternative, it turns out not to be a moral question at all, but one of social conditioning. But not necessarily very often.

And when I envy and hate those that seem to live without morality, and even feel that it is unjust that they should be able to live oblivious to it, my attitude to morality is one of hatred, as if I would rather there were no God. And if I console myself that I am more comfortable when I have the idea of God, my attitude, which has comfort as its goal is no better.

...

Wow. That's a very deep insight into human morality, and I thank you for sharing it.

Nevertheless while bad these feelings are about morality, and bear witness to the true law, which I know exists, however bad my attitude towards it. I follow my feelings about morality - I follow all sorts of feelings of which it is one. The true law I don't follow. Just the fact that there is a true law shows up my feelings as evil (although they do the good task of pointing to it).

A very interesting insight.

So, if I understand this correctly, you are doing your best to behave morally, because you know that it is right, but you also distinguish between following the rules because they are the rules, and actually wishing to follow them.

It's odd. At the moment that you identify yourself as falling short of the true law, of not really being a moral person... You are acknowledging it, and showing faith towards it. You have not been blessed with the easy joy of accepting it, but you strive anyway.

I suppose entering existentialist territory is not much of a clarification!

It is indeed.

I don't know what to say. I think... In some cases, doubt is not a weakness in faith, but rather, the thing which makes that faith great; to have faith despite doubt is an accomplishment, a struggle, a test of dedication.

It sounds to me as though you have much the same thing. Just as someone denied the easy certainty of God's existence may choose to believe anyway, you have not been given the easy path to morality, but you are struggling towards it anyway.

You, sir, are a hero. In recognizing your shortcomings, you have in no small part transcended them.

If I may suggest something, from my own experience: I found the challenges faith holds for me frustrating and ultimately painful, until I found that they helped me communicate with other people for whom faith does not come easily. You may find that the insights your condition gives you into the struggles of others who do not find moral law easy or appealing are a fair reward for your efforts.

All4one · Oct 13, 2004

GMRELIC- I am terrible sorry. I guess your comment was thrown in during a heated conversation and I was feeling fingers pointed anyways. Much appreciation for your ability not to get angry as well. Love ya bro.

As for you Bellman....lol... Gotta watch that liberal stuff bro. LISTEN TO THIS! IF YOU DON'T STAND FOR SOMETHING THEN YOU WILL FALL FOR ANYTHING.

I really cannot argue with you Bellman, you are just so wise. I mean it states it in your signature as well. Seems to me that wisdom does not need an introduction.... a person of such magnitude and wisdom! (which by the way ONLY comes from God)! If a person thinks that they are wise WITHOUT the council of God they only seem that way in their own eyes. There is a very fine line between dealing with fools as quoted in Proverbs 26. I don't know weather answering your arguement is only gonna make me look foolish or maybe I should so that you don't think your wise?!? You see my dillema here? Go ahead and be opinionated about everything BUT I have a question. If everything is based on what a person believes and there is only opinion... no real right or wrong then how is there wisdom at all? I mean, there has to be right and wrong for wisdom to abide... if this were not the cause then even those who are wrong would be wise.. do you see where im going with this?

In Love,
All4one

All4one · Oct 13, 2004

OK what annoys me most........there's a lot! lol but to narrow it down would be faulty christians. Christians who support things that are sinfull ie gay marriage, abortion, pornography etc.
Christians who complain about the world but will not do anything about it. Speak up, speak out, make changes.

You see bellman... Morality... A common cause and unity... A DEFINED right and wrong.

OrthodoxServant86 · Oct 13, 2004

What I despise about morality is something I am often guilty of; when an individual for a second thinks he can somehow be both the measure and judge of what is right and wrong based on his own actions. I personally believe that no man is to any extent capable of defining what is ultimately truly good and truly evil; that's what Adam and Eve did to themselves to bring about death! The concepts of true good and true evil are both beyond the notions of time and space, since ultimately everything that leads to the universe's status quo (that is, before the fall) is ultimately good, and everything we do as fallen humans ultimately leads us away from this; that's where the architect of the universe, the Logos (Jesus) comes in like Bob Villa to fix a broken house. The problem is, we can't help but dwell in this house until the ultimate rededication ceremony happens, so that's why we have things like laws; ultimately presumptuous and futile, but a necessary result of man's own actions, hopefully we can learn to collectively bring God into the picture (enter; Gospel).

My .02

In peace,

-Justin

Brimshack · Oct 13, 2004

All4one said:
You see bellman... Morality... A common cause and unity... A DEFINED right and wrong.

Actually, that's not a definition of morality. It may or may not be an accurate description of one of moralities features, but it is not a definition of morality. I am also curious as to the relevance of your critique of Bellman. Are you trying to say that unbelievers cannot understand morality? Or are you trying to say that any sense of morality that one has points to God? Something else? Either way, don't you think you are shifting the goals a bit here as the OP dosn't exactly frame any of this as a debate over the relationship between morality and God. Guerrilla polemics?

I would add that your alternative to morality based on God is a bit of a shell game. You describe that as an alternative in which everything is based on opinion, and thus using the same word to label all views, you seem to infer that they all have the same value. But not all opinions are equally valid, and there is no reason to suppose that they are. Were this not the case, your God would be of no use either insofar as he would merely be an object of and perhaps an inspiration for more opinions, the likes of which you have already declared to be on equal footing. But the fact is that some opinions are more clear, more precise, better rooted in fact, more relevant to this or that problem, etc. than others. We can argue about which opinions are better than others, but to suggest that God and only God resolves this is essentially to bypass the very problem and declarte it resolved through no effort on your own. Unfortunately, that approach has a pretty good chance on ensuring that you will end up with one of the LESS sound opinions out there.

seebs · Oct 13, 2004

All4one said:
IF YOU DON'T STAND FOR SOMETHING THEN YOU WILL FALL FOR ANYTHING.

But if you stand for just anything, you have fallen for something.

CSMR · Oct 13, 2004

Thanks for the encouragement Seebs! It is nice to think that we are not witout a role. If my role is to comment on the planks in other people's eyes, so be it!
You mustn't think I do my best; I am not a believer in free will! - I follow whatever urge is the greatest. My attitude to morality is one emotion, greed another, pride another, loyalty another; none is truly higher than any other. Well in reality they are not so easy to separate; whatever comes out of the mix, I do. I used to try, or think or half-think I tried - "heroically" to pass through the eye of a needle; it didn't end heroically, that's for sure! Rather hilarious in fact, like a child trying to make magic - concentrate very hard!
I suppose there was no declared winner, in your argument with Zoot on this subject!
Recognising shortcomings is important: in the paradox of grace, peccator est justus. Sit at the lowest place to be invited to the highest. If there is a struggle, it seems to be in not falling into comlete worldliness but to always retain our perception of the world in relation to God.

The Bellman · Oct 13, 2004

All4one said:
As for you Bellman....lol... Gotta watch that liberal stuff bro. LISTEN TO THIS! IF YOU DON'T STAND FOR SOMETHING THEN YOU WILL FALL FOR ANYTHING.

That's nice. If liberalism was about not standing for something, then it'd even be relevant.

All4one said:
I really cannot argue with you Bellman, you are just so wise. I mean it states it in your signature as well. Seems to me that wisdom does not need an introduction.... a person of such magnitude and wisdom!

I see you are forced to resort to childish sarcasm in lieu of actually responding. A pity. I thought you might actually be able to support your views.

All4one said:
(which by the way ONLY comes from God)! If a person thinks that they are wise WITHOUT the council of God they only seem that way in their own eyes.

wise1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wz)
adj. wis·er, wis·est
Having the ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; sagacious: a wise leader.

Exhibiting common sense; prudent: a wise decision.
Shrewd; crafty.
Having great learning; erudite.
Provided with information; informed. Used with to: was wise to the politics of the department.
Slang. Rude and disrespectful; impudent.

Obviously, your claim is false. It is possible to discern or judge what is true, right and lasting without "the council of god"; it is possible to be shrewd and crafty and to exhibit common sense without "the council of god"; it is possible to be informed without "the council of god".

As to your claim that wisdom only comes from god - that is neither demonstrable nor demonstratably false. It's a faith claim on your part, so inarguable. However, there's no evidence to support it.

All4one said:
There is a very fine line between dealing with fools as quoted in Proverbs 26.

A fine line between dealing with fools and what?

All4one said:
I don't know weather answering your arguement is only gonna make me look foolish or maybe I should so that you don't think your wise?!?

In general, answering someone's argument doesn't make you look foolish or wise. What makes you look foolish or wise is how you answer it. So what you say makes you look either foolish or wise.

All4one said:
You see my dillema here?

No.

All4one said:
Go ahead and be opinionated about everything BUT I have a question.

In regard to some things, I am opinionated, as we all are - including you.

All4one said:
If everything is based on what a person believes and there is only opinion... no real right or wrong then how is there wisdom at all?

A useless question to ask me, since I have never either stated or implied that "everything is based on what a person believes and there is only opinion."

All4one said:
I mean, there has to be right and wrong for wisdom to abide... if this were not the cause then even those who are wrong would be wise.. do you see where im going with this?

There has to be right and wrong (in the sense of correct and incorrect - eg., 2+2=5 is wrong, 2+2=4 is correct). Since I never disputed this, I wonder why you're pointing it out.

All4one said:
You see bellman... Morality... A common cause and unity... A DEFINED right and wrong.

That's not what morality is. It has nothing to do with a "common cause", nor with a defined right and wrong. I suggest you go back to my earlier post and check the definition of morality.

Oh, and next time, try really hard to just reply to my post without childish insults and sarcasm. It only makes you look like you haven't anything worthwhile to say. And you might check out the thread "The Moral Crisis" - if you can actually stick to discussing the issues, your input would be welcome.

All4one · Oct 13, 2004

wise1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wz)
adj. wis·er, wis·est
Having the ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; sagacious: a wise leader.

Exhibiting common sense; prudent: a wise decision.
Shrewd; crafty.
Having great learning; erudite.
Provided with information; informed. Used with to: was wise to the politics of the department.
Slang. Rude and disrespectful; impudent.

Back to the dictionary?

I see you are forced to resort to childish sarcasm in lieu of actually responding. A pity. I thought you might actually be able to support your views.

You are right here.. It is stupid to argue with someone who don't want to believe the truth anyways. How can I argue my standpoint if a person does not believe the bible anyways?

When I say "morality crisis" I mean what I say and the Creator of truth knows this as well. I have given my two cents and just have to say... Hope you believe it sooner then later brother.

All4one · Oct 13, 2004

I see you are forced to resort to childish sarcasm in lieu of actually responding. A pity. I thought you might actually be able to support your views.

In spite of this I would LOVE to see your "support" on the belief that there is no morality crisis.

LondonsBurning · Oct 13, 2004

What do I despise the most?

The Dallas Cowboys!

ToddNotTodd · Oct 13, 2004

All4one said:
You are right here.. It is stupid to argue with someone who don't want to believe the truth anyways. How can I argue my standpoint if a person does not believe the bible anyways?

How about trying to give evidence for your standpoint?

Non-biblical evidence...

FadingWhispers3 · Oct 13, 2004

I despise legislation of morality. I really, really, really despise legislation of morality. By that I do not mean that I find it repulsive to make laws against murder if I believe murder is morally wrong. Nor am I averse to law in general.

I just think that God, in his infinite wisdom, granted people liberty and so it is of greatest evil for us to misuse that liberty by robbing other people of their liberty. It is akin to robbing God. For God blessed people so that people may be a blessing to each other.

The importance of liberty is not just that it allows people to do good or what is perfect, but almost as important or more important is that liberty allows people to make mistakes. It is crucial to our development as humans that we exercise the responsibility given to us whether well or badly.

God did not put a fence around the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I do not think God made a mistake there. God does not say that everything is good to do. On the contrary, we see King David although he repentanted and was forgiven live through horrible consequences of his misdeeds.

Legislation of morality is at best useless and at worst a grevious evil. It makes people into white washed tombs... clean on the outside but hiding all kinds of wickedness underneath. It destroys the meaning of the spirit behind the law because it is impersonal. It does nothing to impart knowledge. It casts out people which rightly should never be cast out.

The Bellman · Oct 13, 2004

All4one said:
Back to the dictionary?

Yes; you seem to need it.

All4one said:
You are right here.. It is stupid to argue with someone who don't want to believe the truth anyways. How can I argue my standpoint if a person does not believe the bible anyways?

No, it's not stupid at all to argue with someone who had a different viewpoint to you. That's what forums like this are FOR.

All4one said:
When I say "morality crisis" I mean what I say and the Creator of truth knows this as well.

You're trying to communicate with other people on this forum. The idea is to discuss so that THEY know what you mean. If you can't - and apparently you can't - then you're pretty much wasting your time.

All4one said:
In spite of this I would LOVE to see your "support" on the belief that there is no morality crisis.

Sorry, that's not how it works. YOU claimed there is a morality crisis; it's up to YOU to support your claim. It's not up to me to disprove it; it's up to you to prove it. Apparently you can't do this, so your claim is (unless and until you support it) worthless. That's okay. People make worthless claims on here all the time. I just thought you might be able to support yours. Silly me.

~Wisdom Seeker~ · Oct 13, 2004

All4one said:
I just wanted to open a talk where everyone tells something they cannot stand regarding morality. Not just that but also explain why.

The only think I really hate regarding morality is when one person's (or a group of people's) belief about what is godly and what is not becomes a control issue.

For example. I used to belong to a church that believed that women should not show any skin below their collar bone or above the bottom of their knee to be modest. It was taught that the reason for this was because to do otherwise would tempt men who could not control their own lusts and desires, and cause them to stumble in their faith. This is blame shifting, pure and simple.

I always had a big problem with that as I think that men are fully capable of bieng responsible and accountable for their own thoughts and actions.

I think this is just wrong. You can't treat adults like children. You can't mandate a belief. A person's godliness comes from inside. Faking it to project something that may or may not be heart felt is just wrong. Blaming outside influences for what is in a person's mind and heart is also a real cop out.

You can not dictate anyone elses morality. And yet, it's common practice for people to think they have the right do exactly that. I have a real problem with that.

Viola_Strange · Oct 13, 2004

What do I despise most about morality?

Don't really despise anything or anyone, but I have issues with the following:

Not following moral guidelines.

New Age-y pseudo-non-religion, religions like scientology or the whole Free Love movement. Potheads, any substance abusers. Anyone, atheists and christians, who acts "holier than thou."

All4one · Oct 14, 2004

Bellman, I must say that I am convicted for my actions. Some of the things I have said is out of the way. I do appologive, God has convicted me. Although I do know my view is true I must say that the way I present it and back it is less then appropriate. Now I will back myself on morality biblically and worldly.

Biblically:

First of all we may examine what Jesus came for.
Luke 5:31- Jesus answered them," Healthy people don't need a doctor- sick people do."
When Jesus said this he was distuinguishing between right and wrong. He came to die for us while we were yet sinners.
Romans 5:8- But God showed His great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were yet sinners. (Verses taken from NLT)
Now by thinking that faith is just an opinion we are saying that Christ is only who we think He is and not actually who He is. That is why I say that if we do not "stand for something (Christ) then we fall for everything. If we have no moral focus point then we never have a defined guideline to go by. When we think God is bound by whatever people think He is then we actually bind ourselves.
John 4:23- But the time is coming and is already here when true worshipers will worship the father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for anyone who will worship Him that way.
I do not know if you have heard the elephant proverb before. There were six blind men who all came to an elephant. One felt of the belly and thought it was a wall, another a leg and thought it was a tree. Yet another felt of the tail and thought it was a whip and another the tusks and thought it was a spear. One of the last two grabbed the trunk and said it was a snake and another an ear and thought it was a leaf.
What I am trying to imply here is that "what a person thinks" is not healthy unless it is the truth.
John 14:6- (Jesus speaking) " I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
The men feeling of the elephant all had their own ideas of what truth was but it was not that at all. It is only when they are trampled that they will find error.
John 16:13- When the spirit of truth comes He will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting His own ideas; He will be telling you what He has heard. He will tell you about the future.
You may ask why I am speaking on truth so much when morality is the question at hand. Morality comes from truth. Morality is not what you believe but what is actually so. With no truth the US and no one for that matter has no true unity. Everyone runs their own race because everyone believes their own thing. The bible speaks of a time when everyone "follows what is right in their own eyes." I believe we are in much of that stage today.
When I say morality collapse I mean exactly that. More then ever the "church" cannot be trusted. That alone is a morality crises because the church for years has dispersed morality and distributed right from wrong. This is why I am angry with myself for pushing these things. It is because the church has not been doing its job that people are so confussed about our state. The greatest hinderance to Christs body today has been the Christian themselves. If 12 men (plus a few) changes the world then why can all that are Christians today not do even more? We all have acess to Gods store.
Some say that we do not need morality to unify but if we do not then we have heated debates on abortion, capital punishment, animal rights, incest, jail, God, truth, marriage, and everything else of any importance at hand. If our presidents had the same motivations and morality then there would be no debate. All there is in this country is disagreement, yet many cannot see the collapse and reason for the split of "one mind and body."

Earthly

Anyone open to suggestion knows the earthly effects. Since God is excluded people have no true understanding of what is right and wrong because without God there is no moral judge. I will provide an example. Since God says abortion is wrong but people do it anyways we miss the point. God says murder is wrong but what if someone walked into your best friends house and blew away their entire family with a gun? Then when you wanted justice the cops said, " well I don't see anything wrong with it." It is truly coming to this point. We think we have advanced but we are actually oppressed by satan. If people would "humble themselves and pray" God would heal this land.
It may seem that we are talking about religious beliefs here but we are talking about any set of morals. If you say to a Christian that what they say is just "what they believe is right" then how do you know that what you accept to be true is really true? A christian has the backing of God but opinion has no backing. I may refer back to the murder scenario where a person murders your best friend and his/her family. Who is to say thats wronge? I bet the murderer don't think so. So because they believe that I guess that makes it their "rights" so we let them go? I tell you the truth that "rights" are the downfall of this nation. When we get "freedom" we are actually free to let satan take control in many ways. Everything goes is not freedom. When this nation says "freedom" it is only the freedom to be captive to something..... and choose what. I pray to God that you understand what I am saying.
Without an ultimate judge and a regard for everything as just what a person "believes" we find a morality crisis. Bellman once again I am sorry for my sarcastic attitude. I must learn to understand that it is only by the grace of God that I see these things and some others do not. It is nothing of myself so I must refrain from thinking so. Please support your opinion here... I would love to see what you have to say from your standpoint and teaching.

In Christs Love,
All4one

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