What would option 3 look like

Debi1967 · Aug 5, 2007

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
I can understand how that would be a concern. I worried about that myself. However my experience has been the opposite -- that they work hard with the individual not to give them the boot. I might hang out in different sections of the board from you, hence the different perspective, cuz a different group of mods? Anyway I am really sorry that you have not been on the receiving end of love and charity since the changes. I don't know your history or what prompts this remark, so I am aware you could be genuinely honestly suffering -- in which case you have my absolute empathy -- or you could be a provoker and instigator who isn't getting her way anymore -- in which case you do not. NOT saying that's what you are, just saying I DON'T KNOW so I would not know how to formulate the best response to your unique situation.
I can give you a hug though. Everyone needs those.

Are you absolutely sure this is what is happening? Because if your religious convictions cause you to behave in a harsh, flaming or abrasive manner toward someone else, you WILL be cited for flaming, etc. (and so would *I* or anyone else on here). Again, without knowing the specifics of your experience it is hard to respond aright here. What have you done to approach the staff and discuss this situation objectively and rationally? That would be my first line of defense if I felt wrongly discriminated against -- that and finding a senior staff who "gets" me to back me up.

But you must be realistic enough to comprehend this is merely how you read these scriptures. It is not what they actually say (others may read differently -- remember Jesus' question? "what sayeth the scriptures? how readest THOU?") but what they are saying to YOU. Others may see them in a different light. Anyway if you read my post you will see I am an advocate of having some Christian-only safe zones here for Christians, and I think that's basically what you're concerned about here too, right?

I don't think it is asking that, I really don't. But I would be the first to say again that yes, I believe some areas should be Christian only and I believe the Christian only areas are appropriate for selection of Christian only mod staff. But having a non-believer act as an arbiter in open areas is no different than what we encounter in the secular world today. There are good leaders and bad ones, and the presence or absence of a profession of Christianity doesn't seem to make much difference whether they are good or bad. Matter of fact, most of those openly credited as Christian tend to be the worst. I'm glad it's not like that here.

Actually we agree hmm....

I was up until a few days ago the Wiki Editrix of the Wikipedia of this board, so no I am not used to deliberately being unfair or so biased that I do not try to see others points of view. I also own a Christian website of my own, which although small means I must stay objective at all times.

Can i like anyone else get on my high horse about something from time to time? Yeah guilty as charged

Unfortunately when I do that I often have to apologize for my behaviour too. But I am a sinner like everyone else here. So I make some mistakes. Thank God he is forgiving Huh?

Unfortunately I have to agree with you that sometimes Christians are the worst offenders. I wish this was not so.

When I post I realize that I am posting my own perspective and how I was taught. If others agree with me or not that is of course up to them.

Mrs.Sidhe · Aug 5, 2007

RaggedRobin said:
I wish then you would give me my right to also voice my concerns if this is an open site.... because then I am allowed my own opinion.

Oh please I never said you did not have a right to voice your concern. However if you are going to complain about being unequally yoked with 'unbelievers' than perhaps you would be happier going to another site that does not have 'unbelievers' bothering you....

There's a difference between what you are saying and what I'm saying.

Debi1967 · Aug 5, 2007

Mrs.Sidhe said:
Oh please I never said you did not have a right to voice your concern. However if you are going to complain about being unequally yoked with 'unbelievers' than perhaps you would be happier going to another site that does not have 'unbelievers' bothering you....

There's a difference between what you are saying and what I'm saying.

Then let me re-assure you that has already been taken care of a I have my own Christian website....

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Aug 5, 2007

RaggedRobin said:
Actually we agree hmm....

I was up until a few days ago the Wiki Editrix of the Wikipedia of this board, so no I am not used to deliberately being unfair or so biased that I do not try to see others points of view. I also own a Christian website of my own, which although small means I must stay objective at all times.

Can i like anyone else get on my high horse about something from time to time? Yeah guilty as charged

Unfortunately when I do that I often have to apologize for my behaviour too. But I am a sinner like everyone else here. So I make some mistakes. Thank God he is forgiving Huh?

Unfortunately I have to agree with you that sometimes Christians are the worst offenders. I wish this was not so.

When I post I realize that I am posting my own perspective and how I was taught. If others agree with me or not that is of course up to them.

Cool. Peace to you and your house, Robin.

GenemZ · Aug 5, 2007

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
I don't wish to provoke conflict, but I honestly don't believe that's what Stranger meant, Robin. I believe he was contrasting two different types of spirit (and informing philosophy behind them) concerning how issues are handled here in general. Of course he can answer for his own meaning better than I can as I'm not inside his head. But throwing up that whole "unequally yoked" thing in response to his post is, IMO, nothing but a red herring deflecting from the very real lack of love that had ruled this site for so long under the "draconian" regime previously.

While that may be the case? The Draconian issue... Love in the Christian life is based upon knowledge of God's Word. Not upon good feelings alone. Love protects.

Philippians 1:9 (New International Version)
"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."

Love without knowledge and understanding of how the rules are to be, in regards to how unbelievers can be trusted to moderate, is like taking away the boiling oil of the Draconion abusers, and replacing it with liquid nitrogen.

Stay first of all with the Word if we are going to find order here that pleases the LORD.

Our LORD has given us commands, and you wish to eliminate them by what you think love is to be?

1 Corinthians 6:1 (New International Version)
"If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?"

2 Corinthians 6:14 (New International Version)
"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"

If you do not Love the Lord first above all else? You will replace what certain mandates are in the Word we are to follow with a hippy type love... which he hates.

I know since my own return here to CF -- I could have been ostracized for a heretic or worse, being daimonizomai -- instead those who once "punished" me for every little slip or indiscretion have shown me such mercy, welcome, care and compassion that I am compelled to confess if what they display to me is indeed Christianity then it is superior BECAUSE of its Love. For a Christianity without Love is worse than the walking damned and undead and all the pestilence and toxin in the earth.

Now, you are getting subjective because you were falsely accused? (So, was I) Now we are now to go to the other extreme to make things well? Before Erwin changed the rules I was banned from posting in the Christian section because the Draconian Creed gimmick was being used. But, that's another story.

And trust me, even "Legion" can tell the difference. So can all the atheists, unbelievers, and occultists out there.

Ahhhhhhhhh? I am not sure if I can agree. Here's why.

2 Corinthians 2:15-16 (New International Version)
"For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life. And who is equal to such a task?"

The smell of death will always appear to be without love. Its they way it is. You can not love someone into believing in Christ. God must draw them and they must be willing. We are not their reason for believing, nor unbelieving. That would make salvation of you, and I. Not, the Lord. All we can do is to leave them without excuse by being truthful ... or having excuse, when we walk outside of truth. We do not love bomb people into the kingdom. That's for cults.

Over the years I have been in many debates with atheists and pagans ..... What I see here being used is a new tact as to gain a stronghold. The cry for "Love" if not properly understood, will be exploited to gain their entrance as the sheep smile and welcome in what looks like a sheep; walking in with dark hair being exposed when the skins flap as they walk.

This is a Christian forum. They did not have the power here before as in other forums where Christians were not at the helm. When allowed to be? Atheists and pagans were always outright nasty. Derogatory. That can not work here. So? The results?

Thesis... Antithesis.. Synthesis.

With Christians in control? They need a new tact to be effective. So? Send in the "model behavior employee" types are sent here to sabotage the shop. They will be on the utmost excellent behavior as a means to keep their sheep skins on....... They will decry how fair minded they really are. And, by natural disposition? They may be very fair minded as the world sees it.

I have already had to deal with an accused flame with mixed moderators. The unbelievers could not see the spiritual issue that was involved on one point, and if there is any tendency for a draconian attitude on the Christian side? How could it be balanced out with reason? The unbelievers will know how to balance out legalism with the truth of God's Word? The draconian thinking will always win on Christian issues. For the unbeliever will be lost.

What we need is not unbelievers to keep the draconian tendencies intact. What we need is more doctrinal oriented moderators who are also grace oriented.

In Christ, GeneZ

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Aug 5, 2007

Whatever. There will always be those who place the letter above the Spirit and try to argue from that perspective. I am simply not among them.

GenemZ · Aug 5, 2007

LilLamb219 said:
You don't have to set foot in those areas to actually reach out, you know. Spreading the truth shouldn't be a part time thing.

Are you admitting that they did not set foot there?

In Christ, GeneZ

Grizzly · Aug 5, 2007

what does it mean to be yoked? Am I yoked to the janitor that cleans my building? Am I yoked to the police officer that keeps the law in my community?

I know that I am yoked to my wife because we made an oath 18 years ago, but other than that, who am I yoked to?

And can someone please explain the implications of the following passage

"If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?

Does this mean that Christians are called not to use the secular court systems in their country? If someone steals from their house, are they supposed to call their pastor instead of the secular authorities

Snowy · Aug 5, 2007

EveryPrayerCounts said:
Erwin, I love this site. I have put a lot into it over the last four years. It's been a blessing to me.

Some of the changes that have happened are good, but some need to go. Here's what I think needs to be done:

-Make the rules concrete. No more Wiki.

-Bring back the Niccene Creed.

-Make Staff Christian Only

What I like about the new site:

-Non-Christians can post with the Christians.

-The transparency (although I wouldn't mind a private forum for staff, it's not neccasary. PM's work. This way all members can see what happens in the super sekrit staff forum).

That's just my $.02

I like the Nicene Creed but don't think this should be the base on who is Christian and who isn't. We are not to judge others. God knows everyone's heart and to say you believe this and this and this but this and this are wrong is in my belief the main cause of the division among us in the first place.

Inan3 · Aug 5, 2007

http://www.christianforums.com/t5840623-all-these-polls.html

Inan3 · Aug 5, 2007

stranger said:
Then go a little further and read Rev 7:3-8 where the firstfruits sealed first as God's priests in the kingdom come are indeed all of tribal Israel... thus the covenants are one and the same new covenant with both Houses of ancient Israel

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

There are many covenants mentioned in scripture, in OT and NT ...

Jesus is indeed 'the Deliverer' form out of Zion of Israel mentioned by Paul [above quote] and the covenant is ratified only because Jesus perfected his love to the [unjust] death he need not have suffered for himself .... if you look at the original then you will see that the covenant is age-lasting rather than 'everlasting' , but that is a small point excepot that after the age there is no actual use for it because it is fu7lfilled whe Israel are all saved [first , to be able to act as a holy nation of priests at the second resurrecton for the kingdom come ...

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Read Rev 7:3-8 ... the firstborn church are indeed the remnant saints of Israel, all belonging to one tribe or another ...all descendants of the sons of Jacob through whom came the promises by descent ...

'THE' new covenant ... implying there is but one rather clearly ?

Again ,the scripture details that Jesus went to Jerusalem to eat the Passover as his last meal with the disciples before his death as the sacrificial Passover Lamb of God ... Jesus then fulfilled the memorial Passover , made holy by decree of God, and so set it as a memorial to his death which brought in the new covenant with Israel... the point being that by fulfilling the old covenant and perfecting his love by dying unjustly for sake of all men, Jesus became the messiah of Israel [annointed king, 'christos' in Greek NT ... annointed by Mary before his daeth - Mark 14:9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.]

The role of the messiah, the christ, is given in scripture as the re-uniting of the two yet-divided Houses of the nation of Israel under one king :-

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

--this being the necessary first step in making Israel a holy nation of priests and kings who reign on the earth , but Jesus does not rule in THIS earth :-

Revelation 5:10 ...And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: ...

It is clear then that the kingdom is in the new earth , and the preists and kings of the whole nation of Israel saved first are redeemed solely to minister to the sinners of THIS earth resurrected at the second resurrection...

--thus the many are saved after the few [Rev 7:9-10] , in fact more than a thousand years afterward , perfecting their love in righteous life in the new earth, thus following Jesus in sinless loving living as saints in the kingdom of God... this then the broad way of the MANY to God through Jesus , that is differenet than the strait narrow way of saints by grace of the new covenant in this world :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Religion of men thus has the scriptures totally wrong, most men are saved after death by the ministry of Israel under jesus as their king , in the new earth ... after the second resurrection then, God baptises all flesh according to his promise to do so [Joel 2:28] and all men come to know all truth [John 16:13] ... [but we know most men diesd sinners and NOT believing in Jesus already, without knowing all truth... so we know God cannot hev baptised all emn now as the churches of men claim ... John 16:13 proves that because most men die ignorant of all truth of God!]

Thus there are no other new covenants, none are required... grace is required by Israel only , all other men are purged of sin by death :-

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Again, the 'sheep' are mentioned repeatedly in the OT , it is again an allegory for Israel used consistently in all scripture ,e.g. :-

1 Kings 22:17 And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace.

And what is your contention with me?

I'm sorry but I find your jargon, though very wordy, to be unconnected with what I have been saying. It seems very spotty and not very clear. I am afraid I might misunderstand what you are saying. If you are debating what I said please be more explicit because quite frankly, it appears to me that you are taking scriptures here there and everywhere to make your understanding of the scriptures say what you want them to say. Whatever it is you are trying to say!?!

It appears you have an agenda of your own that you want to present but quite frankly, I do not know WHAT in the world you are talking about. And before you try to put that on my understanding abilities, you might look at your presentation of the whole issue.

Are you "trying" to say that it is the Jews ONLY who will be part of the covenant or ... I don't know...Just what are you trying to say?????

I think it would be good if everyone knew what it was.

stranger · Aug 5, 2007

Are you "trying" to say that it is the Jews ONLY who will be part of the covenant or ... I don't know...Just what are you trying to say?????

My friend , the scripture really must be an integrated whole to be the one word of God, thus one must use it all to understand any aspect of it ... that is why I quote scriptures from various places, ... I cannot quote the whole , you must read that for yourself to understand it ,yearning to God that he give you understanding [instead of ,as commonly happenms, listening to what sinners teach and write...

Thus I must use scripture, not my own words, and I am only trying to present what it says, i have no agenda whatever exceoptthe desire to see if others undertstand what it says the same way that I do...

Thus I ask you to read it more slowly and understand each part before continuing, then it will eb clear what the scripture is saying [it matters not what i am saying if it i different from what scripture is saying!]

ow , your question is about the Jews, but the jews are the House of Judah, the House of Israel mostly never took up Judaism, never became Jews ... so the Jews are only part of the whole still-divided nation of Israel

now read the new covenant [Heb 8:8-12] and you will see what it says ,that only all of Israel [both Houses] receive grace

GreenMunchkin · Aug 5, 2007

Will this thread actually have any impact on anything? If we're all wasting our time, someone should let us know.

FriendsFellowship · Aug 5, 2007

Erwin said:
Okay, one day, when I'm not at work, and I have free time, I will read all the posts in these threads, but in the meantime, I'm at work, so my time on CF is limited, but I want to say that all this discussion is healthy, it is good and it is a sign of a vibrant community who loves this site, its members and the vision, and no matter whether you support the vision or the new framework, the fact that you post in here and are discussing the issue means that you are supporting me as a person, so for that I thank you all.

I WILL read the posts in the threads, just not today. It's a day of meetings today here at work.

GreenMunchkin said:
Will this thread actually have any impact on anything? If we're all wasting our time, someone should let us know.

According to Erwin he would read all the posts here in this thread. Of course he said that when it was only half it's current size!

GreenMunchkin · Aug 5, 2007

FriendsFellowship said:
According to Erwin he would read all the posts here in this thread. Of course he said that when it was only half it's current size!

Hey, bro! It's so nice to see you

Thing is, I saw him reading it last week, and nothing's changed. Am beginning to wonder whether this whole thread wasn't simply about appeasing people while allowing the "New CF" to go on "unmolested".

If this thread was a placebo, it's insulting, because people have been attempting to civilly discuss how we can find some middle ground.

FriendsFellowship · Aug 5, 2007

Not only this thread Munchie, but the poll thread was supposed to be open through August 3rd, and nothing's happened with that either.

for you!

stranger · Aug 5, 2007

GreenMunchkin said:
Will this thread actually have any impact on anything? If we're all wasting our time, someone should let us know.

Hmmm... I think Erwin has a great deal to read and to think about... it seems unlikely that we shall egt any early decision even on this pathetic poll , let alone whatever comes next... too many cooks, too amny vested interests, not enough love.... a recipe for headaches, not swift decisions....

Still it is clear to me that no-one can take anything from the poll except that it should never have been made... option 3 emerges quite strongly from the comments people made and even from those who abstained from taking the flawed vote ... unsurprisinly most people want things to stay much as they are, but someone to magically make everyone more loving to each other [leaving the name and outreach the same , or even improving outreach, but not reducing it]

Erwin sems so very harrangued taht it is anyone's guess what will happen , I think the poll itself shows his desperation and inability to discern taht Jesus ahs the answer in simply using scripture and love as the law here...as in gd's kingdom come... some people like the idea a lot, most cannot envision how it would work... Jesus at least has confidence in it as a way to perfection... I don't think that Erwin will even take it seriously somehow....

GreenMunchkin · Aug 5, 2007

FriendsFellowship said:
Not only this thread Munchie, but the poll thread was supposed to be open through August 3rd, and nothing's happened with that either.

for you!

So this may all just be opiate for the masses Triffic.

stranger said:
Hmmm... I think Erwin has a great deal to read and to think about... it seems unlikely that we shall egt any early decision even on this pathetic poll , let alone whatever comes next... too many cooks, too amny vested interests, not enough love.... a recipe for headaches, not swift decisions....

Still it is clear to me that no-one can take anything from the poll except that it should never have been made... option 3 emerges quite strongly from the comments people made and even from those who abstained from taking the flawed vote ... unsurprisinly most people want things to stay much as they are, but someone to magically make everyone more loving to each other [leaving the name and outreach the same , or even improving outreach, but not reducing it]

Erwin sems so very harrangued taht it is anyone's guess what will happen , I think the poll itself shows his desperation and inability to discern taht Jesus ahs the answer in simply using scripture and love as the law here...as in gd's kingdom come... some people like the idea a lot, most cannot envision how it would work... Jesus at least has confidence in it as a way to perfection... I don't think that Erwin will even take it seriously somehow....

It's just not realistic, what you're saying, though. I mean, it sounds wonderful in theory, but it isn't panning out that way. And if you look at the poll that spawned this third option, last I looked, more people wanted it changed than want it to stay the same. The margin probably isn't any more than 10% or so, but that was predictable enough.

Most people stated they wanted a mixture of the two, which is the whole point of this thread, and yet we've had no official acknowledgement, in terms of what this is actually for, if it's actually for anything.

Right now, many, many people are deeply unhappy with CF, and just hoping people will slink away quietly - if that's what's happening - isn't particularly good.

Inan3 · Aug 5, 2007

stranger said:
My friend , the scripture really must be an integrated whole to be the one word of God, thus one must use it all to understand any aspect of it ... that is why I quote scriptures from various places, ... I cannot quote the whole , you must read that for yourself to understand it ,yearning to God that he give you understanding [instead of ,as commonly happenms, listening to what sinners teach and write...

Thus I must use scripture, not my own words, and I am only trying to present what it says, i have no agenda whatever exceoptthe desire to see if others undertstand what it says the same way that I do...

Thus I ask you to read it more slowly and understand each part before continuing, then it will eb clear what the scripture is saying [it matters not what i am saying if it i different from what scripture is saying!]

ow , your question is about the Jews, but the jews are the House of Judah, the House of Israel mostly never took up Judaism, never became Jews ... so the Jews are only part of the whole still-divided nation of Israel

now read the new covenant [Heb 8:8-12] and you will see what it says ,that only all of Israel [both Houses] receive grace

I have replied to your post in another thread because I think it is off the subject of this particular thread and unfair to others who are still discussing this thread. If you would like to see it it is at the following site address.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5846102-scriptural-interpretation.html#post37393094

Inan3 · Aug 5, 2007

GreenMunchkin said:
So this may all just be opiate for the masses Triffic.

It's just not realistic, what you're saying, though. I mean, it sounds wonderful in theory, but it isn't panning out that way. And if you look at the poll that spawned this third option, last I looked, more people wanted it changed than want it to stay the same. The margin probably isn't any more than 10% or so, but that was predictable enough.

Most people stated they wanted a mixture of the two, which is the whole point of this thread, and yet we've had no official acknowledgement, in terms of what this is actually for, if it's actually for anything.

Right now, many, many people are deeply unhappy with CF, and just hoping people will slink away quietly - if that's what's happening - isn't particularly good.

I have looked at the poll everyday and just went there again and I have never seen option one ahead of option 2. It is my understanding that Option 2 is th one where people want it to stay the same.

That is all moot though because Erwin has stated that he is going to make the final decision. I think where the vote is so close that he will just have to do what he wants to do with the site and there is nothing wrong with that he is the site owner. I do wish he had made that more clear.

Regardless of how it goes I do think that people have to accept it and go with it. If we have been praying about it and truly believe that God hears our prayers than we will have to accept the outcome.

This is a powerful tool that can be used of the Lord to further His kingdom and regardless of which way it goes if we trust Him to do that we will see His hand upon our endeavors here. Giving up and walking away is never the answer. If we stand for what is right the Lord has said that even our enemies will be at peace with us.

What would option 3 look like

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