What would it take to make you a Christian?

jacknife · Jul 4, 2019

Im not even sure to be honest, it would have to be proof that the christian narritive is correct. But at the same time i'd need proof of a deity.

Joyousperson · Jul 4, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
That is an interesting definition. There is a lot more detail than most definitions I have read.

What would need to change for you to become a Christian? Would you need for Jesus to appear to a group of you and your friends inside a locked room so that you could examine his crucifixion wounds (as was the case for St. Thomas)? Would you need to fall in love with a Christian who wants to marry you, but first you must also become a Christian? ... Lots of possibilities.

Definition is critical.
How can one change to be a Christian, if one do not understand what exactly is Christianity and who is a Christian?
Therefore the exact definitions are very critical.

For exact definition, note this;
Definition - Wikipedia
especially re intensional definition

An intensional definition, also called a connotative definition, specifies the necessary and sufficient conditions for a thing being a member of a specific set.[2] Any definition that attempts to set out the essence of something, such as that by genus and differentia, is an intensional definition.

The critical aspect of the essence of who is a Christian is the personal covenant [divine contract, agreement] where the Christian establishes a personal relationship with the Christian God to comply with the covenanted terms.

As for change, note this clue;

Older People Hold Stronger Belief in God
Across the world, people have varying levels of belief (and disbelief) in God, with some nations being more devout than others. But new research reveals one constant across parts of the globe: As people age, their belief in God seems to increase.
Older People Hold Stronger Belief in God

From the above there is a change in the brain, i.e. the neuronal connections that increase one's need for a God, as what a Christian would need, i.e. a relationship with God.

The above is merely an indication, but the same changes in the brain's algorithm at any age [teen to adult to older age] will trigger the person towards the need to have a more intense relationship with God, where the majority are Christians, Muslims, Hindus, followed by others.

dlamberth · Jul 4, 2019

Joyousperson said:
How can one change to be a Christian, if one do not understand what exactly is a Christianity and who is a Christian?

It happens all of the time.

jacknife · Jul 4, 2019

dlamberth said:
It happens all of the time.

I strongly agree ,I have a coworker who has never read the bible, never set foot in a church. She converted only because of the movie "the passion of christ" you'd be surprised how little people dig into thier faith. I only really started enjoying learning about theology after I deconverted. (Edited for spelling errors i'm sure I left some in there still.)

Joyousperson · Jul 5, 2019

dlamberth said:
It happens all of the time.

Note the emergence of the many cults and sects due to their not understanding the definition of 'what is Christianity' and 'Who is a Christian', e.g.

The Family International (TFI) is a cult [1][2] which was founded in Huntington Beach, California, US in 1968. It was originally named Teens for Christ and it later gained notoriety as The Children of God (COG).
In 1976,[3] it began a method of evangelism called Flirty Fishing, that used sex to "show God's love and mercy" and win converts, resulting in controversy.
The Family International - Wikipedia

cloudyday2 · Jul 5, 2019

jacknife said:
Im not even sure to be honest, it would have to be proof that the christian narritive is correct. But at the same time i'd need proof of a deity.

I wonder what part of the Christian narrative would need to be true? For example, the story about Jesus walking on water probably isn't essential. This forum uses the Nicene Creed as the definition of Christianity, but the virgin birth and several other items in the Nicene Creed probably aren't essential.

For me, the God of the OT is too small to be the true God, and that is the fatal flaw of Christianity. I would need evidence that Jesus of Nazareth did NOT believe in the God of the OT. That would be step one for me in regaining faith in Christianity. The heretic Marcion had a similar opinion, so this is not a new problem.

dlamberth · Jul 5, 2019

cloudyday2 said:
I wonder what part of the Christian narrative would need to be true?

I'd have to start right at the very beginning with the nature of God and work my way down through the Creation story, the Fall, the OT myth stories, the need for redemption and right up to the image of the One True Way.

Robban · Jul 5, 2019

dlamberth said:
I'd have to start right at the very beginning with the nature of God and work my way down through the Creation story, the Fall, the OT myth stories, the need for redemption and right up to the image of the One True Way.

Start bailing,
sounds like trying to empty the ocean with a spoon.

dlamberth · Jul 5, 2019

Robban said:
Start bailing,
sounds like trying to empty the ocean with a sppon.

There are other oceans to swim in.

Robban · Jul 5, 2019

dlamberth said:
There are other oceans to swim in.

ruthiesea · Jul 7, 2019

Christian beliefs are so foreign to my beliefs and those of my religion I could never accept Christianity.

Joyousperson · Jul 7, 2019

ruthiesea said:
Christian beliefs are so foreign to my beliefs and those of my religion I could never accept Christianity.

Christianity on average is the most optimal religion for humanity in it present phase.
In general humans are very multi-variate and there is no one religion that will fits all, thus each individual will have to tend towards what is optimal for them in accordance to their specific circumstances.

caerlerion · Jul 8, 2019

Joyousperson said:
Christianity on average is the most optimal religion for humanity in it present phase.

On what basis?

bhsmte · Jul 8, 2019

Simple ability to believe the theology. I used to believe, but the more i learned and used my brain, i simply couldnt buy the the story any longer.

dlamberth · Jul 8, 2019

Joyousperson said:
Christianity on average is the most optimal religion for humanity in it present phase.

While looking around at the desecration of the Earth with active participation of Christians, I have no idea what image for "optimal religion for humanity" your talking about. Aside from the extermination of much of the Living World, Humanity itself sure seems to be on a trajectory towards self-destruction. The Christian want of seeing Creation as an object to be man handled how ever way we want rather than experiencing the Divine in this Living Creation as Sacred and treating her so, is not at all what I'd call an optimal religion for Humanity.

cloudyday2 · Jul 8, 2019

bhsmte said:
Simple ability to believe the theology. I used to believe, but the more i learned and used my brain, i simply couldnt buy the the story any longer.

Do you think you could pinpoint a particular idea that is unbelievable? In other words, could you say "I can't believe X, and Christianity requires X."

Joyousperson · Jul 8, 2019

caerlerion said:
On what basis?

DNA wise ALL humans has the potential of an existential crisis and it is active in the majority of humans.
Religion is the most effective tool to deal with the existential crisis/dilemma.
Therefore the majority of humanity need religions.

The Abrahamic religions [Judaism, Christianity, Islam] which promise instant salvation upon surrender and believe is the more effective group of religions to deal with the existential crisis at present.

Judaism is very inclusive and thus not open freely to all within humanity.

Christianity has its cons but it pros to humanity is Christianity has an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. 'love all - even enemies' which prohibit ALL Christians under all conditions from committing evil and violent acts upon non-Christians.

Islam does provide those who surrender and believe instant relieve to the existential crisis via salvation.
However Islam in its full context do not have an overriding pacifist maxim that prohibit ALL Muslims under ALL conditions to commit evil and violence upon non-Muslims.
Islam in the Quran permits or even exhorts all Muslims to war and kill non-Muslims where Islam is under threat [fasadin] (very vaguely defined].

Point is not all Muslims will follow the above, but a critical SOME of evil prone Muslims from a pool of 320 million, i.e. 20% conservatively, will be naturally influenced and inspired to war and kill non-Muslims to please Allah so as to be ensured of a place in paradise with eternal life.
Example, even drawing cartoons of Prophet Muhammad is a threat to Islam. This is so evident where many were killed for such innocuous reasons.

From the above, the most optimal religion for humanity at the present phase in thus Christianity.

Whilst Christianity with its pros and cons is the most optimal at present, it is not the most effective in the longer run.

The more effective religions to deal with the existential crisis is Buddhism-proper, followed by Taoism, certain Hindu religions, and the likes.
Buddhism-proper is too advanced for the current majority of people but it will be optimal for the majority in the future [next 50-100 years] when their brain are more tune for it along with the exponential expansion of knowledge. The present lot of Buddhists practiced a kind of compromised Buddhism.

Joyousperson · Jul 8, 2019

dlamberth said:
While looking around at the desecration of the Earth with active participation of Christians, I have no idea what image for "optimal religion for humanity" your talking about. Aside from the extermination of much of the Living World, Humanity itself sure seems to be on a trajectory towards self-destruction. The Christian want of seeing Creation as an object to be man handled how ever way we want rather than experiencing the Divine in this Living Creation as Sacred and treating her so, is not at all what I'd call an optimal religion for Humanity.

To be precise, it is imperative we separate the believers from the ideology as two independent variables to be dealt with specifically before we combine them.

Christianity itself as represented solely by the Gospel has an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. love all - even enemies that prohibit all Christians from committing evil and violent acts upon non-Christians and Christians.
Therefore Christians who has committed evil and violent acts cannot be doing it with permission from Christianity and the Christian God.

Note my explanation why it is optimal in the above post.
Note Christianity has it pros and cons and is optimal for humanity at this PRESENT PHASE [till the next 50-75 years], but not for all times.

dlamberth · Jul 8, 2019

Joyousperson said:
DNA wise ALL humans has the potential of an existential crisis and it is active in the majority of humans.
Religion is the most effective tool to deal with the existential crisis/dilemma.
Therefore the majority of humanity need religions.

Human's have done very well without religion for most of our 250,000 plus years. Yes, there's been a spiritual connection, mostly with the Earth in some form. But it didn't materialize as what I'd call a "religion". If one were to take today's indigenous cultures as a sign, the spiritual connection for most of Human history has been with the Earth in some form of animism.

Joyousperson · Jul 8, 2019

dlamberth said:
Human's have done very well without religion for most of our 250,000 plus years. Yes, there's been a spiritual connection, mostly with the Earth in some form. But it didn't materialize as what I'd call a "religion". If one were to take today's indigenous cultures as a sign, the spiritual connection for most of Human history has been with the Earth in some form of animism.

DNA wise, the existential crisis has been with humans since humans emerged. This existential crisis is permanent until the day humans can tweaked the DNA codings which is not recommended.

The majority of humans have been dealing with this existential crisis since day one via a series of evolving methods from the basic, animism, primitive religions, polytheistic religions to monotheistic religions.

The earlier methods of animism and primitive religions were very crude [praying to trees, mountains, oceans, human sacrifice to please the gods or devil] and not very effective to deal with the existential crisis as human evolved further. Thus the need for more sophisticated religions like the monotheistic religions which promise instant relief upon surrender and believe.

In parallel to the above religions there is the series of evolving non-theistic spirituality, e.g. Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, and others.

Point is with the default DNA leveraged unavoidable inherent existential crisis the majority of humans at present just cannot do without religions. Other less popular alternatives are non-theistic spirituality or drugs, etc. to suppress the existential pains and Angst.

Those who are able to wean off religions are relying on a very thin thread of rationality and other reasons to modulate the unavoidable impulses of the existential crisis. The fact of biology and neuro-anatomy is this neural thread gets thinner with age as the neural inhibitors atrophize.

Older People Hold Stronger Belief in God
Across the world, people have varying levels of belief (and disbelief) in God, with some nations being more devout than others. But new research reveals one constant across parts of the globe: As people age, their belief in God seems to increase.

Note, even the once world most notable atheist, Anthony Flew turned to a deistic God [not theist] in the later part of his life when the thread that held his atheistic state broke loose.
Antony Flew - Wikipedia

As such, those who are non-theistic [me included] at present need to strengthen their neural modulators to ensure they do not revert to the default of theism to deal with the unavoidable inherent existential crisis.

What would it take to make you a Christian?

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