I like to think of the garden of Eden before the fall as a perfect environment. So what was the devil doing there? Can you imagine being in heaven with Jesus and the devil being there also tempting you. Don't think so. Yet God permitted the devil to tempt Adem and Eve in the garden of Eden. A paster told me that the devil is like the best sales person in the world knocking on the door of your house trying to sell sin to you. The devil is way smarter than Adam and Eve, it's like they didn't have a chance. What kind of spiritual warfare training did Adam and Eve have so they would be ready to face the devil in the perfect environment the garden of Eden.
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What was the devil doing in the garden of Eden?
- Thread starter ristretto
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Actually, satan wasn't able to follow Adam and Eve around the garden to tempt them. This was the reason why they were instructed to avoid the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan was bound to that area. We can know this because Eve was not tempted until she went to the tree.
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The Garden was heaven on earth with the exception of the tree and satan. BUT we do not need to be in heaven until we complete the objective here on earth. This earthly Garden is a lousy place to fulfill mans object as is seen with Adam and Eve.
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Satan is smart enough and patient enough (he has eternity) to choose the best time to tempt Eve and/or Adam. Where does it say satan was limited in his travels?
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BeforeTheFoundation
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Markus6 said:
Precisely, the idea that the serpent is Satan is a much later idea. Never in the text does it actually say that the serpent is the Devil.
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- Feb 4, 2006
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This verse, combined with many other scriptures, connects Lucifer, Satan, and the Serpent together as one being, albeit with differing alter(ed)-egos.
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Rev 12:9)
Actually a kind of unholy trinity when you think about it:
Father=Lucifer, the boss
Son =Satan, alter ego of boss
UnHS =Serpent, operative agent of deception.
owg
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BeforeTheFoundation
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oldwiseguy said:
Yes, I am familiar with this reading. However, I still disagree. Yes, the creature in the garden is called ho ophis (snake) in the Septuagint and yes, this being which is clearly identified as the Devil in Revelation is also called ho ophis but, just because they use the same word does not mean that they are the same being. The snake in Genesis is never refered to as a mighty dragon (ho drakon ho megas) or the Devil (ho Diabolos ) or Satan (ho Satanas) like the creature in Revelation is. In fact, far from being identified with the Devil, in Genesis the snake is specifically refered to as an animal (Genesis 3:1). Other than the fact that it could talk, we get no real indication that the snake is supernatural in any way.
oldwiseguy said:
I am confused. The verse that you quote states that the great dragon was also known as a serpent and was called the Devil as well as Satan. Not three different persons like the Trinity. A few different things refering to the same being.
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The serpent, or snake, was a representation of Lucifer. That he would go on his belly and eat dust represented being "cast to the earth" or becoming connected only to the material earth from that time forward, his place in heaven being revoked (athought he could still visit, as he did in Job). The baton of rebellion was passed from him to Eve, and she too fell from a 'heavenly' place represented by the garden of Eden to the mundane earth, also to eat of that earth all the days of her life (no more heavenly fruit as found among the trees of the garden). Lots of methaphors in the story.
I was using the trinity example (as it is widely believed) as ironic humor. One spirit being with three distinct characteristics, and all bad.
owg
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BeforeTheFoundation
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oldwiseguy said:
But this does not actually respond to my critiques of the linguistic relationship between Revelation and Genesis.
As far as the Job passage would go, I would again reiterate that there does not seem to be a reason to connect Job's ha shatan with the snake in Genesis.
Ah, I see.
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Ezekiel 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
Satan was in the garden of God as the leader of the heavenly choir of the Most High. Apparently, God prepared good works for Satan, that he should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)
Satan was also part of the heavenly council. (Job 1:6)Ezekiel 28:14-15 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
The devil was perfect since the day he was created. (Genesis 2:1)
Ezekiel 28:16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.
Ezekiel 28:17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.
The devil has sinned from the beginning. (1 John 3:8) It is revealed he was a murderer from the beginning. (John 8:44) Now Jesus said murder in the heart was in danger of hell fire. (Matthew 5:21-22) Hell was in fact prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41) From the beginning, the obsession of the devil has been to thwart the purpose of God being worked out through the woman. (Genesis 3:15; Revelation 12:4) Pride is the beginning of evil.
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BeforeTheFoundation
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jpar43 said:
So, God failed then? He meant for Satan to have good works and yet that is not the reality.
ha shatan was in the heavenly council. ha shatan is not Satan as we think about him though. ha shatan literally means adversary. Sometimes it means a supernatural adversary and sometimes just 'the adversary' in general. The point is, because ha shatan is in the heavenly court, in fact is a member of the heavenly court, he is not the Satan that we think of. Furthermore, there is no evidence that either Satan as many people think of him, nor ha shatan were in the Garden of Eden (see my posts above).
This is a contradiction.
k2svpete said:
Indeed.
Benefactor said:
...ok... What does this have to do with the prospect of the Devil being in the Garden of Eden?
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He foreordained before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20) that His Son might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)
Not quite. Satan indwelled the serpent. The serpent was in the Garden of Eden. Now in this context, the word Satan is a accurate description. It means hateful enemy. Since Satan is the hateful enemy, he is all the more opposed to God, who is love.
Now the serpent (Revelation 12:9) was more cunning (2 Corinthians 11:3) than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. (Genesis 3:1)
Ezekiel 28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
Mankind did not witness Satan's beginning. But he was part of the heavenly choir. He was part of the heavenly council. He was prepared for good works. And yet hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)
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BeforeTheFoundation
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No it doesn't. ha shatan means 'the adversary'.
But there is no textual evidence to support this. Why is it that the Devil indwelled the serpent? Reading the text itself, it does not even suggest it.
See my post above that shows that the serpent in Revelation is not the same as the Serpent in Genesis. If you want to make that claim you need to refute my earlier claim.
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The arch-enemy of good.
The Apocalypse of Moses 16:1-5 And the devil spake to the serpent saying, Rise up, come to me and I will tell thee a word whereby thou mayst have profit." And he arose and came to him. And the devil saith to him: "I hear that thou art wiser than all the beasts, and I have come to counsel thee. Why dost thou eat of Adam's tares and not of paradise? Rise up and we will cause him to be cast out of paradise, even as we were cast out through him." The serpent saith to him, "I fear lest the Lord be wroth with me." The devil saith to him: "Fear not, only be my vessel and I will speak through thy mouth words to deceive him."
Revelation 20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
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