What was God doing without the created universe?

[tonychanyt]

What was God doing before the creation of the universe?

Augustine:

For thou madest that very time itself, and periods could not pass by before thou madest the whole temporal procession. But if there was no time before heaven and earth, how, then, can it be asked, "What wast thou doing then?" For there was no "then" when there was no time.

Augustine argued that God created time itself along with the spatial universe, so there was no time before creation for God to be doing anything. The question became nonsensical or "incommensurable" (Confessions, Book 11, Chapter 11).

Nor dost thou precede any given period of time by another period of time. Else thou wouldst not precede all periods of time.

Mathematically, that is not true. Augustine presumed that ordering required the existence of time. Without it, there was no ordering of situations. In fact, ordering does not require a temporal dimension. Mathematical objects like linearly ordered sets (total orders) and partially ordered sets (posets) demonstrate that ordering can exist independently of time.

Physically, according to relativity, time is not linear. For an outside observer, time appears to stop for objects approaching the event horizon, while an infalling observer experiences time normally until they reach the singularity.

According to quantum mechanics, pairs of virtual particles can form near the event horizon, with one falling into the black hole and the other escaping. Over time, this process causes the black hole to lose mass and eventually evaporate. Some strange events/situations are happening inside the black hole where time, as we know it, does not exist.

What was God doing before creation existed, before time existed?

God is eternal. The existence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is beyond time which he created. This relationship within the Godhead/Divinity existed from eternality. God is completely self-sufficient (aseity) in Himself.

Ac 17:

24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.

Godhead/Divinity does not require the existence of creation or time to do anything.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What was God doing before the creation of the universe?

Augustine argued that God created time itself along with the universe, so there was no time before creation for God to be doing anything. The question became nonsensical.

Mathematically, that is not true. Augustine presumed that ordering required the existence of time. Without it, there was no ordering of situations. In fact, ordering does not require a temporal dimension. Mathematical objects like linearly ordered sets (total orders) and partially ordered sets (posets) demonstrate that ordering can exist independently of time.

Was Augustine's claim worded this way? —"there was no time before creation for God to be doing anything."

Mathematically, our apprehension of the mode(s) of God's existence is nonsensical.

However, you are correct that the ordering of facts does not logically require a temporal dimension. "Sequence of events" might, but, sequence of caused facts does not.

Physically, according to relativity, time is not linear. For an outside observer, time appears to stop for objects approaching the event horizon, while an infalling observer experiences time normally until they reach the singularity.

According to quantum mechanics, pairs of virtual particles can form near the event horizon, with one falling into the black hole and the other escaping. Over time, this process causes the black hole to lose mass and eventually evaporate. Some strange things are happening inside the black hole where time, as we know it, does not exist.

Did you mean this discussion concerning black holes as part of your larger point, or as demonstrative that our view of time is irrelevant to the facts? (And, no, I don't mean that as criticism —just trying to fit it into the discussion as you meant it).

What was God doing before creation existed, before time existed?

God is eternal. The existence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is beyond time which he created. This relationship within the Godhead/Divinity existed from eternal. God is completely self-sufficient (aseity) in Himself.

Ac 17:


Godhead/Divinity does not require the existence of creation or time to do anything.

The idea —not exactly a concept— that "God does what he is" might play into this, though I don't like the sound of it, quite, since it is only 'a way to look at the matter'. According to logical development, philosophy's statements concerning God, of Aseity, Simplicity, Perfection, and so on are right in that they imply that he did not NEED us. But he is even higher than that, "spontaneously existent", I say, though I don't know what that means. He is the only source of "new", being the only creator —of that I am sure. But outside of our experience of him and of his creation, his existence already assumed by us to not be like ours, is beyond our ken.

You are AT LEAST correct, (dead right!), that God does not need the existence of what he makes, for himself to be active / to do anything. Our problem there, is our imagining of what that "anything" might be, outside of our experience of fact.

 

[tonychanyt]

Was Augustine's claim worded this way? —"there was no time before creation for God to be doing anything."

No, not exactly. I added Augustine's words in the OP. Take another look. Good point

Did you mean this discussion concerning black holes as part of your larger point,

Right, the point is that there is something strange about time beyond common sense.

or as demonstrative that our view of time is irrelevant to the facts?

Not exactly. It is relevant but only to some extent. Time is a tricky concept.

The idea —not exactly a concept— that "God does what he is" might play into this, though I don't like the sound of it,

Right, it sounds a bit like a cop-out.

"spontaneously existent", I say, though I don't know what that means.

Right. I'd avoid that to describe God. He is eternal—whatever that means

He is the only source of "new", being the only creator —of that I am sure. But outside of our experience of him and of his creation, his existence already assumed by us to not be like ours, is beyond our ken.

Right.

You are a smart guy

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, not exactly. I added Augustine's words in the OP. Take another look. Good point

Right, the point is that there is something strange about time beyond common sense.


Not exactly. It is relevant but only to some extent. Time is a tricky concept.



Right, it sounds a bit like a cop-out.


Right. I'd avoid that to describe God. He is eternal—whatever that means



Right.

You are a smart guy

Well, thanks. So are you. I hope the mutual admiration party includes ice cream.

 

[KevinT]

What was God doing before the creation of the universe?
...

Physically, according to relativity, time is not linear. For an outside observer, time appears to stop for objects approaching the event horizon, while an infalling observer experiences time normally until they reach the singularity.

According to quantum mechanics, pairs of virtual particles can form near the event horizon, with one falling into the black hole and the other escaping. Over time, this process causes the black hole to lose mass and eventually evaporate. Some strange events/situations are happening inside the black hole where time, as we know it, does not exist.

It is fun to theorize such things, but ultimately mankind has to accept that it is unknowable. It is simply outside the scope of what we can physically investigate. And short of physical evidence, we are left with only imagining logically-consistent theories. As an example of this, String Theory is an idea that many have worked on. Adherents are convinced that that its underlying tenets are correct and have spent a lifetime working out all the consequences. Others feel it has all been a bit waste of time and effort.

I feel trying to deduce the nature and properties of God is somewhat akin to trying to prove whether String Theory is real.

Still fun though.

KT