What Value has Evangelism in Reformed Theology

FreeGrace2 · Oct 5, 2020

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Telling someone for whom Christ didn't die to believe in Him for salvation is meaningless.

royal priest said:
Not if there's a chance He did die for them.

The point is that it is actually a lie to tell someone (in Calvinist theology) who isn't elected that Christ died for them. That is a straight up lie. And Calvinists don't know who would be or wouldn't be elected.

However, Calvinist "election" is unbiblical anyway. From TULIP we have an unconditional election (to salvation). Meaning, God chooses who to save, which really means chooses who will believe. But the Bible doesn't teach this.

The Bible teaches that man is able to believe and yet many refuse to believe. Acts 14:2, 19:9.

Believing is a choice that man makes. God doesn't force or program anyone to believe.

If I'm wrong, then please provide any verses that teach that He does.

Setting election aside, would you feel like you were wasting your breath if no one believed the message? You shouldn't. People's responses shouldn't be the motivating factor behind preaching. It should be God's glory that motivates us.

I absolutely agree. A person's response or reaction to the gospel is between them and God alone. That's not my responsibility at all.

In fact, the moment a person isn't interested or doesn't want to hear more, we should respect that as well.

However, we can't "set election" aside. It's an important doctrine, but Calvinism got it wrong.

royal priest · Oct 5, 2020

[QUOTE="FreeGrace2, post: 75394815, member: 319176" ]
The point is that it is actually a lie to tell someone (in Calvinist theology) who isn't elected that Christ died for them. That is a straight up lie. And Calvinists don't know who would be or wouldn't be elected.
[/QUOTE] You are correct

BBAS 64 · Oct 5, 2020

TibiasDad said:
I have just begun reading the book Deconstructing Calvinism, by Hudson Smelley, and in the prologue found this statement:

Calvinism completely compasses God's redemptive plan and teaches that God saves a small percentage of humanity based on His elective determination before creation and passes over the rest. Since God's redemptive plan excludes most people, there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things. Indeed, it is difficult to see how we could make any honest gospel presentation knowing most people are by God's purposes not savable. Not only that, since salvation hangs on God's elective determination before creation and not on a present decision for Christ, we must make this TULIP reality personal. We must come to grips with the fact that many of those we know, and perhaps some of those closest to us, have no possibility of being reconciled to God because they are not elect.

What caught my eye is the idea that "there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things."

I had always thought the Calvinistic evangelism was like searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack,, the rare Elect person in the mass of reprobates, but had never thought of the effect of the presentation of the gospel to those who would never be able to experience it. Smelley terms it "misleading" them to think that they might be savable, when in fact, there isn't a sliver of hope that this would happen.

What are your thoughts, either pro or con to Smelley's thought?

Doug

Good Day, Doug

If you are interested in Evangelism from the reformed POV... maybe best to read Evangelism Explosion by DJ Kennedy, or JI Packer evangelism and the sovereignty of god . You should find them useful.

28:33 of this will answer your question;
Defending the Faith: 2018 West Coast Conference" video"

Questions & Answers with Godfrey, Lawson, Nichols, and Thomas by Various Teachers

In Him,

Bill

5thKingdom · Oct 5, 2020

TibiasDad said:
Well Jim, I am going to leave this conversation at this point, because, as much as I disagree with your soteriology, I have never deemed Calvinism a heresy nor declared those teaching it as going in the broad way to destruction.

I believe you to be dead wrong in your interpretation of scripture and yet I do not doubt that those who hold your theological beliefs can be and are sincere and dedicated believers in Christ, but one who treats a brother in such a manner is certainly not worthy of my time and energy, and I do not care to encourage such behavior by engaging it in further fruitfulness discussion!

Doug

5thKingdom · Oct 5, 2020

Well Jim, I am going to leave this conversation at this point, because, as much as I disagree with your soteriology, I have never deemed Calvinism a heresy nor declared those teaching it as going in the broad way to destruction.

But, of course, that is the problem with the Broad Way and
narrow way. Those preaching man saves himself do not see
it as an attempt to "be like God".

Again, Jesus gives us John 6:65-66 as an example...
for a REASON.

Those who think monergism and synergism are not CORE
issues in the Gospel are missing the point entirely.

Jim

5thKingdom · Oct 5, 2020

royal priest said:
[QUOTE="FreeGrace2, post: 75394815, member: 319176" ]
The point is that it is actually a lie to tell someone (in Calvinist theology) who isn't elected that Christ died for them. That is a straight up lie. And Calvinists don't know who would be or wouldn't be elected.

You are correct[/QUOTE]

Since we know Christ did not dies for SOME...
He said some were NOT His sheep and some were NEVER MEANT
to "be forgiven". Then it is a LIE to tell anyone Christ PAID
for their sins.

5thKingdom · Oct 5, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Believing is a choice that man makes. God doesn't force or program anyone to believe.

If I'm wrong, then please provide any verses that teach that He does.

You are kidding right?
The Bible is FULL of examples of people who were
NEVER MEANT to be saved... as any OT Gentile,
or any NT "tare/goat"

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

.

5thKingdom · Oct 5, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Calvinists focus is entirely on the sovereignty of God ... and in the process dismiss God's abundant love. He is indeed sovereign ... but He chose to give all His intelligent beings freedom of choice. Without choice TRUE love can not exist .... we know that ... God knows that.

Love is not a forced issue nor can it be.

The greatest of these is LOVE. God IS Love.

Did God give OT Gentiles (who were intelligent)
"freedom of choice"?

.

5thKingdom · Oct 5, 2020

TibiasDad said:
because for me to trust, I must first be irresistibly regenerated, and then be given faith, nd this, is monergistic action. So the more truthful statement would be "you will be saved if God first regenerates you and gives you faith so that you can believe in Jesus." But you cannot say with any confidence that God will in fact do this.

Doug

So, you really do KNOW the True Gospel.
And yet you choose to teach synergism.
Again I am reminded of John 6:65-66

.

5thKingdom · Oct 5, 2020

TibiasDad said:
No, the offer is not to all. It is intended only for the elect, for they are the only ones that God will actually save.

Doug

Again, you show that you KNOW the True Gospel...
and refuse to teach it.... because you do not want
the narrow way, you want the BROAD WAY.

The fact that the vast majority of "Christians" want
the BROAD WAY (many choose it) and FEW can follow
the narrow way... speaks volumes, don't you think?

MANY are called by the Gospel but
FEW are chosen to become saved.

.

5thKingdom · Oct 5, 2020

Dustoff said:
I don't know who Hudson Smelley is but he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

The reason you preach to all is because no one but God knows who the elect are and the command is to take the gospel to the whole world. You preach to all and those ordained to eternal life "believe" Acts 13/48

I looked him up and it doesn't surprise me that he is a professor somewhere. Sometimes the more learning you get the less you know. Bonus points if you can write a book about it.

A breath of fresh air...

5thKingdom · Oct 5, 2020

TibiasDad said:
This is a different aspect of the question.
Doug

Right... let's NOT THINK about those who were NEVER MEANT
to be saved.

Jim

TibiasDad · Oct 5, 2020

royal priest said:
If you're not interested in considering the context of a given line, then what's the point of all this?

Okay, I'll given you the benefit of the doubt...

royal priest said:
Smelley is right that many are misled by such statements, but that is due to their own ignorance of the greater Biblical context.
God, as a primary cause, is usually assumed in conversation as is the case with Jesus and the Apostles when they called men to repentance.

I would not say your statement is more truthful, but rather has different emphasis. I think the choice of our phrasing ought to depend on the particular hearer because some people will tend to depend on their own works, while others will tend to 'let go and let God.'
So, really what we need is a balanced message that says, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God that works in you both to will and to work."

Yes, of course, God is always involved, but the question is specifically how. I have a Calvinist friend on another website that I have come to agree with when he says that Calvinists and Arminians are a lot closer than most would like to admit! But the separation is still significant, for even a quarter of a degree difference in direction will made two lines grow exponentially further apart as you go down the line.

God is always the initiator and finisher of our faith; we cannot start or complete reconciliation, but we must be volitionally involved. We have an independent role within things, but it is minimal and not meritorious in any way, it is merely permissive and responsive to God's leading. God convicts, we acknowledge guilt or deny it. God commands repentance, and we acknowledge his Lordship and turn toward him instead of away, or we exercise our stubborn wills to do what we want instead . God promises us forgiveness and life, and we respond in belief or rebuff is gracious gift.

There are no "works", just internal reactions to God's impetus in one direction or another. These reactions will always manifest as outward action. And these action's are always in response to God's prerequisite movement, so are not the cause of God's action's toward us.

If I am preaching to those with no previous exposure to the gospel, and say " Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved!" There is no reason to assume the Calvinistic protocol of Election/regeneration/understanding/belief and salvation.
There is only a "do you believe I will forgive you" question. God asks, we answer and God responds appropriately. God first, God last!

You seem to forget that Phil 2:13 is written to and about those already believing, not to believers about unbelievers! Unbelievers do not have "God at work within them" yet! Yes, God is working, but from the outside in at this point. He is only within after they has trusted in him.

Doug

5thKingdom · Oct 5, 2020

TibiasDad said:
If I am preaching to those with no previous exposure to the gospel, and say " Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved!" There is no reason to assume the Calvinistic protocol of Election/regeneration/understanding/belief and salvation.
There is only a "do you believe I will forgive you" question. God asks, we answer and God responds appropriately. God first, God last!
Doug

But "believe" in Jesus and you will be saved is only PART
of the Gospel message. It assumes men initiate salvation.
Rather than understanding that "belief" is the RESULT of
being regenerated.

So you think "belief/faith" causes regeneration...
as MOST "Christians" think, as it is the BROAD WAY.

Only FEW Christian follow the narrow way that
DEAD men cannot "believe" until regenerated.

See how quickly we know them by their "fruit"?

Jim

TibiasDad · Oct 5, 2020

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Doug

If you are interested in Evangelism from the reformed POV... maybe best to read Evangelism Explosion by DJ Kennedy, or JI Packer evangelism and the sovereignty of god . You should find them useful.

28:33 of this will answer your question;
Defending the Faith: 2018 West Coast Conference" video"

Questions & Answers with Godfrey, Lawson, Nichols, and Thomas by Various Teachers

In Him,

Bill

I have been through E.E. both in college and in pastoral ministry. Though it's been many years since I've been through it formally, I don't recall any regeneration before faith information in the in plan.

My whole point of interest is simply the fact that Reformed soteriology and its monergistic stance, means that the evangelist knows that God has chosen only certain people, and that more than likely person X is not going to believe, thus they know that there is really no chance at all of them being saved. So one cannot truthfully say that God wants "you", person X, to be a part of his family.

The more truthful, but not as attractive way from my perspective, would be:
"Sir, do you know that you might be one of the few Elect that God has chosen to be forgiven and receive eternal life?" Instead of "If you died today do you think you would go to heaven?"

Doug

5thKingdom · Oct 5, 2020

TibiasDad said:
The more truthful, but not as attractive way from my perspective, would be: "Sir, do you know that you might be one of the few Elect that God has chosen to be forgiven and receive eternal life?" Instead of "If you died today do you think you would go to heaven?"
Doug

But more truthfully,
"Sir did you know that ALL MEN are born spiritually DEAD
and destined to hell. However, God has provided a Savior
to PAY for the sins of SOME MEN... would you like to hear
about the FINISHED WORK of Christ?

Jim

FreeGrace2 · Oct 5, 2020

5thKingdom said:
You are correct

Since we know Christ did not dies for SOME...[/QUOTE]
Where do you find this in Scripture? It's a Calvinist fantasy.

He said some were NOT His sheep and some were NEVER MEANT
to "be forgiven". Then it is a LIE to tell anyone Christ PAID
for their sins.

Jesus NEVER said anything about people who were "never meant" anything.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 5, 2020

I said:
"Believing is a choice that man makes. God doesn't force or program anyone to believe.

If I'm wrong, then please provide any verses that teach that He does."

5thKingdom said:
You are kidding right?
The Bible is FULL of examples of people who were
NEVER MEANT to be saved... as any OT Gentile,
or any NT "tare/goat"

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Not ANY of these verses even addresses people being "never meant" to anything.

You are simply reading into the verses what is NOT there. It's called eisegesis.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 5, 2020

5thKingdom said:
Right... let's NOT THINK about those who were NEVER MEANT
to be saved.
Jim

Instead, let's consider what the Bible says so clearly:

Titus 2:11 - salvation is offered to everyone.

1 John 2:2 Christ atone for the sins of believers and the rest of the world.

2 Cor 5:14,15 Christ died for everyone.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 5, 2020

5thKingdom said:
But "believe" in Jesus and you will be saved is only PART of the Gospel message. It assumes men initiate salvation.

This may be the center of all your erroneous thinking biblically. Believing in Jesus in no way "assumes men initiate salvation".

Why is that impossible? Because in order to believe, the message has to be given. And the gospel comes from God. It's His good news. So to believe the gospel is simply responding to what God has already done for mankind.

All initiation comes from God. Even in the Garden, after the idiots rebelled. God sought them out.

Rather than understanding that "belief" is the RESULT of
being regenerated.

Another faulty error. And of course, you have no verse to back up your opinion.

However, Eph 2:5 and 8 prove the opposite. I'll let you chew on that a bit.

So you think "belief/faith" causes regeneration...

That's also not true.

Keep chewing.

What Value has Evangelism in Reformed Theology

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