What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

prodromos · Aug 30, 2020

Rose2020 said:
Again I repeat, the Bible says absolutely nothing about your claims so I just cannot believe it.

The claims that it was necessary for Christ to be both God and man to atone for us? I would not be so quick to claim there is "absolutely nothing" in the Bible to support this.

Yes it does. If Mary was sinless then that would have made her equal to God and that's blasphemous.

Being sinless does not make one able to create the universe out of nothing. Being sinless does not make one eternal, without beginning or end. Being sinless does not make one all knowing, all powerful and everywhere present. With respect, your claim that being sinless makes one equal with God, simply does not follow.

Daniel Marsh · Aug 30, 2020

StillGods said:
it wasnt his time.
she ignored that
in doing so went against God.
it was sin.

imagine if she had waited for Gods timing. we will never know, much like any act of disobedience on our part God uses it for His purposes but like us Mary ignored God, sad but true. perhaps she was an overbearing mother, sounds like its possible from these verses. If she was a mother then she sinned...no mother is perfect

What is your proof she had that knowledge? She is only human and I doubt she knew he was going to go to the cross.

April_Rose · Aug 30, 2020

Fidelibus said:
First off, as I stated, I never meant for the question to be disrespectful or insulting. If I came off that way, I apologize immensely. I asked the question for reason of discussion, nothing more. It is a simple yes or no, and if they are as you said, "speaking the truth and just stating a fact," I don't see the problem of answering the question for further discussion. So if I understand correctly, you agree with ByTheSpirit that what it say's in Rom. 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory if God" and where BTS said "that ALL means all, not 99% otherwise that would be most have sinned"? If this is so, is it your belief when this passage say's "all" that "all" is an absolute? If so, and if you would like to discuss this further, would you be willing to answer the simple yes or no question I asked BTS regarding seeking God?

If you or BTS do decide to answer, I may not be able to get back to you for a couple of days. I am going camping and fishing, and may not have service, but will get back to you upon my return. Please belive me, I am not trying to be insulting. I ask with upmost intentions.

Have a Blessed Day!

Thanks and well of course my obvious answer is yes,.. but it's not what was written it's how it was that made it sound like you were questioning their salvation.

Daniel Marsh · Aug 30, 2020

concretecamper said:
such is the problem with personal interpretations.

I agree, we did not hear the tone of voice, nor the body language of Jesus.

April_Rose · Aug 30, 2020

prodromos said:
The claims that it was necessary for Christ to be both God and man to atone for us? I would not be so quick to claim there is "absolutely nothing" in the Bible to support this.

Being sinless does not make one able to create the universe out of nothing. Being sinless does not make one eternal, without beginning or end. Being sinless does not make one all knowing, all powerful and everywhere present. With respect, your claim that being sinless makes one equal with God, simply does not follow.

It wasn't necessary for Jesus to die for us because He was God in human flesh,.. it was necessary for Him to die for us because all of us were guilty of sin and the punishment for sin was death until He willingly went to His death on our behalf. And since Jesus was the only sinless person saying that Mary was sinless is equal to Him because of the fact that God is the only one who is sinless.

Daniel Marsh · Aug 30, 2020

Rose2020 said:
Umm,.. I don't think I was talking to you? Did I accidentally quote you instead because I share your beliefs.

I am tired, likely my mistake. Go Rose, Go Rose raw raw.

April_Rose · Aug 30, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
I am tired, likely my mistake. Go Rose, Go Rose raw raw.

That's alright thanks lol

Daniel Marsh · Aug 30, 2020

Rose2020 said:
It wasn't necessary for Jesus to die for us because He was God in human flesh,.. it was necessary for Him to die for us because all of us were guilty of sin and the punishment for sin was death until He willingly went to His death on our behalf. And since Jesus was the only sinless person saying that Mary was sinless is equal to Him because of the fact that God is the only one who is sinless.

sounds like a circular argument to me.

Daniel Marsh · Aug 30, 2020

read to here

April_Rose · Aug 30, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
sounds like a circular argument to me.

What they said or my response?

Albion · Aug 30, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
What is the official definition of co-redeemer (or redemptrix)??

Hi, Daniel. This is not an "official" doctrine, keep in mind. Nevertheless, there are all sorts of Catholic sources which discuss it as if it were, so popular is the belief in Catholic circles.

I could send you off on some Google search, but I went to a search engine myself, and there are so many articles available. I chose the first one, which also has the benefits of being clearer than many such and because it cites entries found in the Catholic Catechism. See what you think.

Mary as Co-Redemptrix – Our Catholic Faith

April_Rose · Aug 30, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
read to here

Huh??

thecolorsblend · Aug 30, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
Was Rev 12 about Mary?

I honestly don't know. I should say that I tend to read Revelation in mostly symbolic terms and avoid literal interpretations as much as I can. So the very most I'm willing to say is that it's possible that Revelation 12 illustrates Our Lady but shouldn't be understood as talking about her in a literal way. The symbols represent something but they are not literally whatever thing they represent, if that makes sense. It's the distinction between true vs. fact.

prodromos · Aug 30, 2020

Rose2020 said:
It wasn't necessary for Jesus to die for us because He was God in human flesh,.. it was necessary for Him to die for us because all of us were guilty of sin and the punishment for sin was death until He willingly went to His death on our behalf. And since Jesus was the only sinless person saying that Mary was sinless is equal to Him because of the fact that God is the only one who is sinless.

Scripture says that Enoch "walked with God" and that he did not die, which seems to imply that he was sinless, since he did not suffer death. Also, Jesus is sinless by nature, since He is Truth. God speaks, and it is. That is completely different to a person not having committed any personal sins, so again, being sinless does not make one equal to God.

chevyontheriver · Aug 30, 2020

Cis.jd said:
ah. you mean the people whose church didn't come to existence until around the 1400's?

You do mean 1500's (or in some cases much later) I trust.

chevyontheriver · Aug 30, 2020

Rose2020 said:
I'm sorry but this is just unbiblical. If Mary was sinless then she could have just as easily been the one that God put on the cross. Jesus was and is the only sinless person that ever existed period!

I'm sorry but your reply is just unbiblical. It takes more than a merely sinless person to die on the cross for us. It takes God's own Son, eternally begotten of the Father, true God. Anything else is just a good person who died. Which is why Mary didn't die for us even though she was sinless. Being sinless doesn't make one God. God on the cross is the only way of salvation. Besides, you are wrong again about Jesus being the only sinless person that ever existed period! Adam was sinless for a while. Eve was sinless for a while.

chevyontheriver · Aug 30, 2020

Andrewn said:
@WanderedHome @chevyontheriver @archer75 @Cis.jd @thecolorsblend @prodromos

Where does the doctrine that St Mary was sinless come from? Did the Nicene / pre-Nicene Fathers claim this? I don't think so.

But I will accept their opinion if you have references.

It comes from the writings of a guy named St. Luke. First chapters of his first book.

Maria Billingsley · Aug 30, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
What part says she sinned? What part says Jesus was not pleased? Is it possible for the man Jesus to be not pleased and what he is not pleased with not be sin like in the tree that bore no fruit out of season?

“What have I to do with you, woman? "
Sounds like he is not pleased to me. She exceeded the bounds of what properly concerned Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

thecolorsblend · Aug 30, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
read to here

Rose2020 said:
Huh??

I've noticed that people who don't know how to use the forum, make bookmarks, etc, post stuff like that as "bookmarks" for threads they intend to come back to later. It's for themselves rather than as an official contribution to a given thread.

chevyontheriver · Aug 30, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
“What have I to do with you, woman? "
Sounds like he is not pleased to me. She exceeded the bounds of what properly concerned Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

And what happens next? Mary says to them to do whatever he says. He tells them to fill the jugs with water and then to take a bit to the steward. The first sign performed by Jesus. He did what she asked him to do. One can wonder about 'attitude' all you want, but it was the setting for the first public miracle of Jesus. Might it not be about 'attitude'?

What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

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