What Say Ye, Creationists & Fundamentalists?

[Givemeareason]

The Vatican rejects creationism

The Catholic Church champions the cause of Charles Darwin.

By Lakshmi Chaudhry / AlterNet

I know we progressives aren't too fond of the Catholic Church, but let's give credit where it's due. The Vatican today struck a blow for reason by soundly rejecting creationism:

Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly.

His statement was a clear attack on creationist campaigners in the US, who see evolution and the Genesis account as mutually exclusive.

"The fundamentalists want to give a scientific meaning to words that had no scientific aim," he said at a Vatican press conference. He said the real message in Genesis was that "the universe didn't make itself and had a creator".

This idea was part of theology, Cardinal Poupard emphasised, while the precise details of how creation and the development of the species came about belonged to a different realm - science. [LINKthanks to Jeff Renshaw]

Yet more evidence that the Christian Right in this country is not 'conservative' -- as in traditional -- in any sense of the word, but the representative of a fringe extremist view of religion.

this HTML class. Value is http://www.alternet.

 

[AV1611VET]

The Vatican rejects creationism

So?

Won't another pope eventually come around that accepts it?

 

[Givemeareason]

So?

Won't another pope eventually come around that accepts it?

This was under Benedict. Francis agrees. Benedict established the council on faith and science. I expect it will continue. Are you opposed to the collaboration between science and Christianity?

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you opposed to the collaboration between science and Christianity?

Absolutely not.

I even have a set of standards I use to reconcile the two:

My Boolean Standards:

1. If the Bible says it, but Science disagrees: go with the Bible.
2. If the Bible doesn't say it, but Science does: go with Science.

 

[HitchSlap]

So?

Won't another pope eventually come around that accepts it?

Only if they elect Ken Ham.

 

[Givemeareason]

Absolutely not.

I even have a set of standards I use to reconcile the two:

My Boolean Standards:

1. If the Bible says it, but Science disagrees: go with the Bible.
2. If the Bible doesn't say it, but Science does: go with Science.

That is Creationism. That is what the Vatican has rejected. That being the case it sounds you are opposed to both science and the Vatican?

 

[AV1611VET]

That is Creationism. That is what the Vatican has rejected. That being the case it sounds you are opposed to both science and the Vatican?

No comment on the Vatican.

 

[Job8]

The fundamental principle for all genuine Christians: IGNORE THE POPE AND THE VATICAN.

 

[HitchSlap]

That is Creationism. That is what the Vatican has rejected. That being the case it sounds you are opposed to both science and the Vatican?

Not only does he despise science, Protestants, and Baptists in particular, feel it is their duty to inform Catholics that they're not "Real" Christians, and the Pope is a tool of Satan.

 

[Givemeareason]

No comment on the Vatican.

Fair enough. Sounds like you agree.

The fundamental principle for all genuine Christians: IGNORE THE POPE AND THE VATICAN.

Are you saying your view of the Bible differs from the Vatican? That must mean the bible cannot be taken literal? And if that is true then how can Creationist views be assured to be true since they are filtered through the lense of the subjective interpretations of the Bible?

 

[Givemeareason]

Not only does he despise science, Protestants, and Baptists in particular, feel it is their duty to inform Catholics that they're not "Real" Christians, and the Pope is a tool of Satan.

Are you then saying that protestants and Baptists feel that they are offshoots of the work of Satan?? Possible maybe when they misrepresent and reject science. But I am certain not all protestants are that way. I just attended mass the first time in many years. And objectively viewing and observing it I saw no evidence of Satan.

 

[Job8]

Are you saying your view of the Bible differs from the Vatican? That must mean the bible cannot be taken literal? And if that is true then how can Creationist views be assured to be true since they are filtered through the lense of the subjective interpretations of the Bible?

You've made a lot of incorrect assumptions here, so to clarify matters:
1. The non-Catholic view of the Bible, its contents, and its interpretation is indeed different from that of the Vatican.
2. The Bible must be taken in its plain literal sense, unless there is sufficient reason to believe that metaphors or symbols are being used.
3. The Creationist view is assured because the Ten Commandments reiterate the plain, literal, historical and sober account of Creation in Genesis -- six literal 24-hour days.
4. There is no need for *subjective interpretations* since the Lord Jesus Christ Himself confirmed that the Genesis account is true and historical, and Scripture further confirms that.
5. There is a Roman Catholic research paper which actually confirms that the Early Church Fathers also accepted the Creation account without any reservations.

I could quote chapter and verse, but I don't believe you are interested in that.

 

[HitchSlap]

Are you then saying that protestants and Baptists feel that they are offshoots of the work of Satan?? Possible maybe when they misrepresent and reject science. But I am certain not all protestants are that way. I just attended mass the first time in many years. And objectively viewing and observing it I saw no evidence of Satan.

Yes?

 

[juvenissun]

The Vatican rejects creationism

The Catholic Church champions the cause of Charles Darwin.

By Lakshmi Chaudhry / AlterNet

I know we progressives aren't too fond of the Catholic Church, but let's give credit where it's due. The Vatican today struck a blow for reason by soundly rejecting creationism:

Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly.

His statement was a clear attack on creationist campaigners in the US, who see evolution and the Genesis account as mutually exclusive.

"The fundamentalists want to give a scientific meaning to words that had no scientific aim," he said at a Vatican press conference. He said the real message in Genesis was that "the universe didn't make itself and had a creator".

This idea was part of theology, Cardinal Poupard emphasised, while the precise details of how creation and the development of the species came about belonged to a different realm - science. [LINKthanks to Jeff Renshaw]

Yet more evidence that the Christian Right in this country is not 'conservative' -- as in traditional -- in any sense of the word, but the representative of a fringe extremist view of religion.

this HTML class. Value is http://www.alternet.

This is another major reason to avoid Catholics as much as one could possibly can.

 

[HitchSlap]

This is another major reason to avoid Catholics as much as one could possibly can.

Like the plague?

 

[crjmurray]

Wow what's with the anticatholicism hapnin up in here?

 

[HitchSlap]

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

 

[juvenissun]

Like the plague?

A well-contained plague.

 

[HitchSlap]

A well-contained plague.

Three-dog night?

 

[Givemeareason]

You've made a lot of incorrect assumptions here, so to clarify matters:
1. The non-Catholic view of the Bible, its contents, and its interpretation is indeed different from that of the Vatican.
2. The Bible must be taken in its plain literal sense, unless there is sufficient reason to believe that metaphors or symbols are being used.
3. The Creationist view is assured because the Ten Commandments reiterate the plain, literal, historical and sober account of Creation in Genesis -- six literal 24-hour days.
4. There is no need for *subjective interpretations* since the Lord Jesus Christ Himself confirmed that the Genesis account is true and historical, and Scripture further confirms that.
5. There is a Roman Catholic research paper which actually confirms that the Early Church Fathers also accepted the Creation account without any reservations.

I could quote chapter and verse, but I don't believe you are interested in that.

That raises several questions within me. Since all protestant denominations to my knowledge split off from the original Roman Catholic Church that makes me wonder. But you are saying the Creationist view is unscientific in its origins? Based on that why does it even exist much less purport to be science? You are surely aware of this. Science has always struggled with religious zealots. Each time the zealots have been proven wrong. Why should I think it is any different now? Your claim that Jesus claimed the literal truth of Genesis would force me to examine Jesus whom I am considering whether he was ever wrong. Obviously there are many Christians who would disagree with that. And why wouldn't the early church fathers have endorsed the Genesis creation accounts? Do you have any idea how the bible was formed?